A Fairer Fair Use?

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you simultaneously retained any copies of those books yourself at the same time that your friends had them, then yes, you would be.

Would that include what Amazon keeps on their server?
I can go to Manage My Kindle and download to another device, in reality it is very unlikely that I'd do that but I also realize that such a notion is irrelevant for this discussion. Wouldn't Amazon be the culprit then for enabling me to download another copy while someone else is using my Kindle?

I guess putting a temporary stop on downloads would solve that issue? If that is the case then Amazon ought to offer such a feature.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Would that include what Amazon keeps on their server?
I can go to Manage My Kindle and download to another device, in reality it is very unlikely that I'd do that but I also realize that such a notion is irrelevant for this discussion. Wouldn't Amazon be the culprit then for enabling me to download another copy while someone else is using my Kindle?

No, because you've agreed not to give it to anyone else. As the first clause in the Amazon licence agreement says:

Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use.

(emphasis mine)

I draw your attention to the fact that digital content is licensed "solely for your personal use".

[no.guru]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Cost. I was involved in numerous mainframe to PC transitions during the 1980s; the cost savings were enormous.

(Although I'm not sure I see the relevance to the current topic!)

I hadn't made it past page one when I responded, but it's relevant all right.

The comment I was responding to related to remote storage of ebooks. Mainframe and dumb terminals being equivalent to cloud storage and and local dumb device.

That model isn't going to replace local storage for me, although others seem to be fine with it.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, because you've agreed not to give it to anyone else. As the first clause in the Amazon licence agreement says:



(emphasis mine)

I draw your attention to the fact that digital content is licensed "solely for your personal use".

Dang!
Those are some harsh conditions. Like most everyone else, I assume, I never got that far. As that is stated it includes family members. Seems unfair, but if those are the conditions I guess I have no choice but to deny my friends this year. I can already here them whisper cockscomb

[crossi]

What does "non-exclusive use" mean? I assume it means you can let someone else read your kindle but does it mean anything else? What does "personal use" mean when you are talking about an account that may have 100 people on it? Is it like a corporation where all members are part of it and considered a single individual? Gaa, I hate legalese.

[HarryT]

"Non-exclusive" use means that other people are being granted the rights to use the material, too.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Dang!
Those are some harsh conditions.

Personal use.
Of course, it is still personal use if you link your personal amazon account to a close family member's Kindle or Kindle app. Amazon makes no effort to restrict that.
But it has to be somebody you trust to spend your money wisely. Or not spend it all all.

The system allows for sharing with family members but not 10,000 of your closest internet friends. A compromise but most reasonable people are fine with it. For everybody else, there's DeDRM...

[Kumabjorn]

I'm fine with the setup as it is. I was just under the impression that if I let a friend borrow my Kindle she could read what was on it without me breaking any IP law. I'm not making another copy but since I retain a copy on Amazon's server and could download that to a K4something app then I would, if I understood HarryT correctly, be in violation. That was a surprise to me.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

I'm fine with the setup as it is. I was just under the impression that if I let a friend borrow my Kindle she could read what was on it without me breaking any IP law. I'm not making another copy but since I retain a copy on Amazon's server and could download that to a K4something app then I would, if I understood HarryT correctly, be in violation. That was a surprise to me.

My guess is you wouldn't be. Both are legal, Amazon created copies.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

My guess is you wouldn't be. Both are legal, Amazon created copies.

But by lending your Kindle to a friend you are in breach of your Amazon licence agreement, which states that content is licensed for your personal use only.

Whether or not it's a breach of copyright law is a separate question. I'm not a lawyer but I'd guess it probably isn't, given that the Kindle is your device.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

My guess is you wouldn't be. Both are legal, Amazon created copies.

I also realize that it is unlikely that Amazon would report my lending of the Kindle, but I find it interesting that the conditions are so strict. Most people wouldn't realize this so when a friend asks to lend my Kindle I will decline - with a full explanation of the consequences - and despite being considered a cokscomb, I see no other way if we are to change peoples minds about how restrictive we want eBook licenses to be.

Those who doesn't hang out here will assume that you are able to treat an eBook the way you treat traditionally published material. That just seems such a common sense approach to most people. A rude awakening might help persuade the powers to be that some kind of change is required.

[caleb72]

The TOS from Amazon also specifies that you can't remove the DRM and just viewing in a non-Amazon application constitutes breach of the agreement even if you download a DRM-free file.

So basically if you're going to break one of those, you might as well break them all.

[Kumabjorn]

I'm not breaking the DRM. I was going to lend someone my Kindle for six weeks.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by caleb72

The TOS from Amazon also specifies that you can't remove the DRM and just viewing in a non-Amazon application constitutes breach of the agreement even if you download a DRM-free file.

So basically if you're going to break one of those, you might as well break them all.

I think, though, you have to make a separate between violating your terms of service with Amazon (which, as you rightly say, removing DRM is) and outright piracy - giving someone else a copy of a book that you've bought.

[caleb72]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think, though, you have to make a separate between violating your terms of service with Amazon (which, as you rightly say, removing DRM is) and outright piracy - giving someone else a copy of a book that you've bought.

I agree - but you were the one who brought that agreement into the argument. Piracy/breach of copyright is not necessarily defined accurately by something written on Amazon's page - agreement or not.

I absolutely see what you're saying about copies here and copies there. It's the same reason I just buy more copies of things to give to family members rather than share files with them.

But even I would not have a problem lending my Kindle loaded with a book to my mother (for example). Of course, that's mainly because I know she wouldn't understand how to remove the file from the device if she wanted to and I know damn well she would have no desire to keep a copy of any books I loan her anyway. But I can see that it's problematic for me to do so.

It's yet to be tried of course because I've never loaned my mother any books to read on the Kindle. Up until now I've only loaned her paperbacks, and if I like the book that much that I want her to read it, I'll often buy the paperback just for her. She's getting Wool - Omnibus Edition for Christmas. Shhhhh! Don't tell her.