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Old 05-17-2012, 08:36 PM   #91
fjtorres
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Originally Posted by K. Molen View Post
I've often used Amazon and other online stores to do my research, and then gone out and done the buying locally.
...or (in my case) to buy from another website.
Amazon isn't *always* the cheapest source. But they almost always have comprehensive product data (and, yes, reviews) so it pays off to check with them before buying anything; online or B&M.
They even maintain product pages for discontinued or out of stock items, whereas most of their competitors only list what they have in stock.

Simply put, they are a good consumer research site as well as a good retailer option. Even when they don't get the sale, they get consideration.

Things clearly are different elsewhere but in North America the consumer is king and competing on price is mandatory to survive in most businesses.

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Old 05-17-2012, 09:01 PM   #92
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To imply that anyone comparison shopping is somehow sleazy is just ludicrous, but that kind of whining is what has become the norm in some industries over the last decade or so.
I hope you know my use of the phrase "sleazy bastards" was sarcastic.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:03 PM   #93
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I hope you know my use of the phrase "sleazy bastards" was sarcastic.
Yes, I know your use was, but the implication in other posts wasn't - though I think the word used there was "cheesy" rather than "sleazy".
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:00 AM   #94
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I use Amazon.com all the time and I don't even have the option of buying from the .com site since it doesn't ship to Canada (and the Canadian site is awful). Poor, poor Amazon, providing a great showroom for other sites and not getting a dime. Maybe we should raise taxes and give a little bit to Amazon to compensate them, or bar anyone who goes on the Amazon site from shopping anywhere else for 24 hours.

The complaint about Amazon using brick and mortar stores as showrooms is a side-show, just something the publishing industry can dress up as a negative and use to support their current "Amazon is the bogeyman" meme.

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Old 05-18-2012, 08:02 AM   #95
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I use Amazon.com all the time and have never bought anything from there since they don't ship to Canada (and the Canadian site is awful).
I'm a little surprised to hear that. I've bought all sorts of stuff from amazon.com, despite living in the UK. Why don't they ship to Canada?
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:20 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
I'm a little surprised to hear that. I've bought all sorts of stuff from amazon.com, despite living in the UK. Why don't they ship to Canada?
They do ship books to Canada. It's expensive though. Other items they do not.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:25 AM   #97
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As I understand it, France aggressively protects copyright and also supports price-fixing. La fleur de la démocratie...but then France is often paradoxical.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:31 AM   #98
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I'm a little surprised to hear that. I've bought all sorts of stuff from amazon.com, despite living in the UK. Why don't they ship to Canada?
I have relatives including grandchildren in Canada and there is a separate Amazon store with a separate Canadian Warehouse there which is is not very complete or good and the Canadians won't allow the US store to ship there.

Sometimes some stores can't even figure out how much to charge you if you buy something to ship to Canada. You end up paying more just so the customs cowboys don't grab it and send it back or you have it shipped to you and mail it yourself which is really expensive.

Mainly try to keep stuff under 4 pounds. That seems to be the magic point. I have a kitchen scale which will tare and weigh to a tenth of an oz.

I can have stuff shipped all over the world with little problem, but not Canada.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:47 AM   #99
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I love the smell of squashed flies. You don't get that with them new fangled "E" books.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:53 AM   #100
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If independent bookstores aren't providing the public with a shopping experience they care about, and aren't offering prices that they want, then what is their benefit? There's no inherent good served by independent bookstores if they're not providing people with a service they want at a price they want to pay. What you describe as a problem is just changing markets due to changing tech; it's a story as old as the Industrial Revolution.
Is not the benefit the ability for you to browse and learn about and compare before buying? It is already known that Amazon tolerates only a certain level of returns before strangling your account. Is not the benefit that the b&m provides you, the comaprison shopper, worth something?

Apparently not to you because you think the b&m should still sell for the same price as the lowest online price. Perhaps it would be best if all the b&m stores simply disappeared and you had to buy everything on faith.

B&M stores also provide another benefit that stores like Amazon currently are fighting -- they collect sales tax which helps fund many of the services that we want, such as garbage collection, municipal water supplies, and the like. Local b&m stores will never be able to match an online price that doesn't also collect local sales taxes.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:49 AM   #101
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I'm always a little saddened by brick and mortar book stores closing, but that's really just nostalgia. I haven't entered a physical book store to buy a book for many years - probably a decade, possibly longer - and the books I've bought in real stores since Amazon and other internet stores appeared can be counted on a hand badly mangled in a saw mill accident.

I have fond memories of book stores from before that, but I also remember well the limited selections, not to mention attempting to order books and being told they're unavailable or that I'd have to wait for weeks. Nor have I needed to browse the shelves in order to decide what to buy in the last twenty five years or so: word of mouth, mailing lists (back in the day), forums and recommendations from friends have served me plenty well.

So that tiny twinge of sadness for old times sake is all the brick and mortar stores will get from me ever again.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:56 AM   #102
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I'm a little surprised to hear that. I've bought all sorts of stuff from amazon.com, despite living in the UK. Why don't they ship to Canada?
You may be right! Last time I tried to buy from the .com site, it just redirected me to the Canadian site, but now I can go through the entire checkout process. So apparently I've been using their site for years as just a reviews aggregator/showroom out of ignorance, rather than any hard block.





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Apparently not to you because you think the b&m should still sell for the same price as the lowest online price. Perhaps it would be best if all the b&m stores simply disappeared and you had to buy everything on faith.
Oh, I don't think that at all. I just don't particularly care what the brick and mortars set their prices at, and I'm just observing that if what they do is seen as a benefit to most people, then most people will shop there. Since we're complaining about online killing B&Ms, evidently most people aren't finding enough value to actually shop in B&Ms.

And I'm hardly buying "on faith". Is it it faith if I'm basing my purchase on 100+ user reviews, and product information that is far more complete than what could be displayed in a physical store? Is it faith if I can see what buyers of an item typically bought with it? I will trade away in a heartbeat the tactile thrill of actually touching an item before I buy it for that kind of information.

Maybe while we're lamenting the death of physical bookstores, we can lament the fact that no one sends personal letters anymore through the mail, or that used record stores are becoming increasingly scarce. Or maybe we can just embrace the fact that markets change and what's seen as a benefit in one decade can be overshadowed in the next.

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Old 05-18-2012, 09:59 AM   #103
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You're right! Last time I tried to buy from the .com site, it just redirected me to the Canadian site, but now I can go through the entire checkout process. So apparently I've been using their site for years as just a reviews aggregator/showroom out of ignorance, rather than any hard block.

There is some stuff that can't be shipped outside the US - most electronic items, for example - but a great many items can be. I've bought things like DVDs that haven't been available in the UK at the time.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:35 AM   #104
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According to Ninjalawyer, the market is a magic wand that solves all problems and the Internet is a god whose commands must be obeyed. However, there is such a thing as market failure and "THE INTERNET!!" doesn't command anything. People through their governments do the commanding-and should.
The showroom effect is an example of market failure-Amazon is profiting from ther good work of independent booksellers. THere are things that can be done. The French culture minister has one proposal-agency pricing for all books, in effect. Probably a nonstarter in the US.
In the US context, we can start by having Amazon pay sales tax and thus contribute to the tax base of states and localities.
We can also have Amazon adhere to fair labor standards in its sweatshop style warehouses. This will cut into Amazon's famed price advantage, of course.
Don't know if much more can be done, but at least we can do this.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:46 AM   #105
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It really doesn't matter whether or not it is ethical. It doesn't matter what is a good idea or bad. The question is, how can stores best deal with it? As one of the links suggested, people may be more likely to use a big box store as a showroom than an independent store. The more faceless the store is, the more people are likely to use the store as a showroom. The big box stores are pretty faceless.

Paper book sales will decrease, but I doubt they will decrease the percentage of the book market that vinyl records has of the music market. Independent bookstores will be better suited to meeting that smaller market. A hostile attitude toward e-readers and the people who read e-books doesn't help. There are those who read only paper books, and there are those who only read e-books. But you don't want to turn away those who read both. I've seen anti-Kindle posters in bookstores, and I don't think that accomplishes anything. The people who already read only paper books don't need persuading, and it isn't likely to persuade those who only read e-books. The only effect that I can see is that it might turn off those who buy both paper and e-boooks. A business is free, of course, to drive business away if they wish. But that person with in your store with an e-reader under their arm would be better viewed as a potential customer then as a certain non-customer. A bald man in a comb store is a non-customer. A person with an e-reader in a book store, maybe not.
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