Whither SF?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The last days of SF? Not a subject I'll debate.
...
- Setting is just a storytelling element. It doesn't define the story, much less the genre or the field.
- SF is all around us; just because the marketers don't trumpet it doesn't mean it isn't blooming.

Mostly agreed. I think I'd love to see a chart of Hugo & Nebula winners and the year-setting of each book compared to the year it was written, but it's a minor point.

Setting doesn't define the story, but it does say something about the culture in which it was written. Fifty years ago, we were happy to write stories set 15,000 years in the future... now, not so much; we're aware that tech and cultural changes make any of our guesses implausible.

I like SF that doesn't claim to be SF: Atwood, Auel (when Ben Bova writes telepathic neanderthals, it's SF; when a romance author writes them, it's literature?), Starhawk.

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

Star Wars isn't SciFi. It's got more in common with Arthurian Romance than it does science fiction.

Yawn... if you want to be picky rather than look at what the general reader/viewer is considering then it's totally derivative, plagiarising eye candy - that doesn't alter the fact that the majority of the people who've seen SW, think it's SF - and that's what I was referring to in my comment - PERCEPTIONS which people have, not picky SF geekery about what this item is or isn't, just that SF encompasses far, far more than most people say/know/care...

[BeccaPrice]

yeah, the SF shelves still seem full, but an awful lot of it is paranormal stuff, urban fantasy, which almost by definition is dystopian. When I find a Lois Bujold or a Terry Pratchett, I glom everything I can by them, but they're few and far between. Too much of modern SF/F seems to me to be slit-your-wrists-after-reading stuff. granted, I have to be more careful than most folks about what I'll share headspace with, but these days I only read by recommendation, and only then with caution.

It's one reason why I've almost completely gone over to reading various sub-genres of romance: it's one of the few genres where I can be guaranteed a hopeful view of the future, with strong plots and good characterization.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

Star Wars isn't SciFi. It's got more in common with Arthurian Romance than it does science fiction.

Of course it's sci-fi: spaceships, blasters, aliens, advanced technology...that's all it takes. That doesn't mean it's *good* sci-fi, of course.

Offhand I can't recall an Arthurian romance with spaceships. (And it seems like they all had falcon scenes).

[Connallmac]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Of course it's sci-fi: spaceships, blasters, aliens, advanced technology...that's all it takes. That doesn't mean it's *good* sci-fi, of course.

Offhand I can't recall an Arthurian romance with spaceships. (And it seems like they all had falcon scenes).

No, it is not. SciFi is about how science and it's advances change humanity and culture. Star Wars is anything but that. Luke is taught to handle magic and a magic sword by an old wizard to save the princess from the black knight.

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Of course it's sci-fi: spaceships, blasters, aliens, advanced technology...that's all it takes. That doesn't mean it's *good* sci-fi, of course.

Offhand I can't recall an Arthurian romance with spaceships. (And it seems like they all had falcon scenes).

Try Patricia Kennealy-Morrison:

Keltiad: Tales Of Aeron
1. The Copper Crown (1984)
2. The Throne of Scone (1986)
3. The Silver Branch (1988)


Keltiad: Tales of Arthur
1. The Hawk's Grey Feather (1991)
2. The Oak Above the Kings (1994)
3. The Hedge of Mist (1996)

'Bout as Arthurian as it gets and definitely has spaceships...

[tompe]

Originally Posted by fantasyISbetter

I'm a lover of speculative fiction- and I am not running out of old and new books to read. There are plenty of choices and varieties. I think Elizabeth Bear (who will always be dear to my heart for Carnival and New Amsterdam) was just giving a little lecture to SF authors to "cheer up dammit!". And Charles Stross' blog that SF might be getting lost in the e-libraries of the world make me think- why is that so bad?

It is bad if the dialogue is lost which was Stross argument. SF books ae usually reactions and comments on other SF books.

[BeccaPrice]

Originally Posted by tompe

It is bad if the dialogue is lost which was Stross argument. SF books ae usually reactions and comments on other SF books.

I don't think that's always true, and I don't think that's necessarily good. For example, with what other SF is Lois Bujold in dialog with? Lois is unique.

If SF is seen as too much being in dialog with itself, that you need to read an increasingly large backlist just to get the in-jokes, we're limiting the audience for SF to those of us who started reading SF in the 70s or earlier.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

I don't think that's always true, and I don't think that's necessarily good. For example, with what other SF is Lois Bujold in dialog with? Lois is unique.

I felt that the early Miles books was written in a certain tradition. Later we got books that was inspired by other books so I would definitely say that she writes her books in a contect were she is aware of previous work.

If SF is seen as too much being in dialog with itself, that you need to read an increasingly large backlist just to get the in-jokes, we're limiting the audience for SF to those of us who started reading SF in the 70s or earlier.

But it is not a question of in-jokes. It is a question about handling different questions and beeing aware a bit of the history. That is why sf written by mainstream authors that is not aware of the important previous books that treat the thing they are writing about can feel so strange and be less good because of it.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

No, it is not. SciFi is about how science and it's advances change humanity and culture. Star Wars is anything but that. Luke is taught to handle magic and a magic sword by an old wizard to save the princess from the black knight.

At the risk of opening a can of works...

One can argue that the telekinetic control over the magic swords was not-particularly-SF, and most of the aliens might as well have been humans in funny costumes, but several other elements of the story hinge on technology and how people relate to it.

Star Wars had a planet-killing device, previously unknown technology in their universe. It hinges on the escape of a couple of droids who weren't identified because their escape pod showed "no life signs." A key event in the adventure was the tractor beam that forced them onto the Death Star. The monster-in-the-trash-compactor could be a bear or wolf, but overriding the programming from the outside is using technology to fight technology. The final blow was struck by turning off the computerized sensors and using "the Force" to decide on the right time to fire.

These weren't particularly complex or new tropes to avid SF fans, but they were real SF themes.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Most of the claims (or complaints) that SF is dying are from people who have a problem seeing where it's going, or imagining how they can continue to be a part of it. Some of those writers just can't figure out what they're going to continue writing about, so they decide that there's nothing left worth writing.

But SF, like life, evolves. The earliest SF was about modern cities and incredible inventions. Later it featured spacecraft, alien worlds and Earth-analogues. Then we started to explore the health and finite lifespan of our own planet. Today we often see explorations of the limits of human life. And throughout these periods, we've had throwback SF to older, more "romantic" eras.

Those themes haven't dried up; they are still relevant. And in a few years, there will be new themes to explore. What themes? I don't know... we'll find out when they get here. And I'll write about some of them, and maybe come up with a few new ones of my own.

And in the meantime, I've got a half-dozen stories sketched out right now.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

No, it is not. SciFi is about how science and it's advances change humanity and culture. Star Wars is anything but that. Luke is taught to handle magic and a magic sword by an old wizard to save the princess from the black knight.

By this definition, a lot of SF isn't. "Dune" isn't because the Bene Gesserit are sorceresses who drink magic potions to obtain supernatural powers, while Paul Atreides is a member of the nobility who hides out with desert nomads while waiting to develop into a magical savior. For a book that a lot of critics believe is the best SF novel ever written, it has very little actual science in it (much less than Star Wars), and I wouldn't describe it as being about how "science and its advances change humanity and culture."

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

No, it is not. SciFi is about how science and it's advances change humanity and culture. Star Wars is anything but that. Luke is taught to handle magic and a magic sword by an old wizard to save the princess from the black knight.

Thats an exceptionally narrow definition of SF. If it works for you, fine, but most others will differ. Now if you said some of the best SF is "about how science and it's advances change humanity and culture" and gave a few examples...

[DrNefario]

It seems to me that a useful definition of SF is not one that excludes Star Wars. It's a bit
like defining white to be black. Nobody else is going to understand what you are talking about.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

It seems to me that a useful definition of SF is not one that excludes Star Wars. It's a bit
like defining white to be black. Nobody else is going to understand what you are talking about.

I entirely agree. Tell someone that Star Wars is not SF, and the likely reaction is going to be "you're nuts" . Of course, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc, are simply old-fashioned adventure stories translated into an SF environment, but they are, by any reasonable definition, SF.