Is Grammar Really That Important Any More?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by LuvReadin

Nope, sorry, Harry - it has! Even if you manage to isolate yourself from all contact with teenagers, you'll also have to give all TVs a wide berth to miss seeing the pink paradise that is: Paris Hilton's My New BFF.

I'm evidently culturally deprived. I'm sure that Dickens doesn't use the term .

[GeckoFriend]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm evidently culturally deprived .

Enlightened, not deprived.

[stickybuns]

Originally Posted by LuvReadin

Fully agree with you. This dislike of the passive voice is a very recent phenomenon, and IMO, reflects the general dumbing-down of education.

I blame the Modern Languages Association, which publishes the style guide used by a significant number of journals within the humanities and requires writers to emphasize the role of the agent. These guidelines are also used in nearly all of the writing reference guides used in college composition courses. Through both the instructor's continuous exposure to MLA publishing standards during graduate school as well as the reappearance of these same guidelines in teaching materials, we have developed the mistaken notion that there are no other options. In fact, it wasn't until I was in grad school attending my first classes in TESL that I learned about the American Psychological Association (APA) style guide, which does permit passive voice and which places the most emphasis on the chronology of research and scientific discovery--and NOT the researcher.

[orlok]

Originally Posted by HarryT

In England . Perhaps it hasn't reached these distant shores? Not one I've come across before.

Hey, that's where I am too. But I do have the advantage of a house full of daughters.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by orlok

Hey, that's where I am too. But I do have the advantage of a house full of daughters.

That's the key then. You're not a solitary old fogey like me .

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by LuvReadin

Nope, sorry, Harry - it has! Even if you manage to isolate yourself from all contact with teenagers, you'll also have to give all TVs a wide berth to miss seeing the pink paradise that is: Paris Hilton's My New BFF.

No you don't. You just have to keep your channel changer away from garbage and focused on things that matter.

[Crossroad Press]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Which again illustrates the importance of effective communications, since I don't have the faintest idea what the statement that I've quoted means. What is a "BFF"? Do you expect your readers to know what a "BFF" is?

I don't use things like BFF in my writing. And honestly, knowing what that meant wasn't even germane to my comment. The point was, if you are just communicating with a group of friends on an intimate level (and I'd expect anyone that I sent a text message to to probably know BFF is best friend forever) it's your call, but if you want me to buy and read your work, you need to use proper English. And if you break the rules, it's good to know up front that you know you are breaking them.

[Crossroad Press]

Also, to chime in on the passive voice. I believe passive voice has its place, but I also believe that it's overuse (which is far too common) removes the immediacy from your writing. I find excessive passive voice one of the most irritating stylistic choices ever. And I am also an old fogey (at least of the half century variety).

[LuvReadin]

Originally Posted by Crossroad Press

Also, to chime in on the passive voice. I believe passive voice has its place, but I also believe that it's overuse (which is far too common) removes the immediacy from your writing. I find excessive passive voice one of the most irritating stylistic choices ever. And I am also an old fogey (at least of the half century variety).

True, but I think it's possibly gone too far the other way, with the passive voice being derided mainly because people simply can't use it any longer. Stickybuns' comment on that was very enlightening, and explains why US publications (even in the sciences) are much more likely than similar UK publications to insist on the active voice even when it's inappropriate.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Crossroad Press

Also, to chime in on the passive voice. I believe passive voice has its place, but I also believe that it's overuse (which is far too common) removes the immediacy from your writing. I find excessive passive voice one of the most irritating stylistic choices ever. And I am also an old fogey (at least of the half century variety).

Agreed, it can be overused, but it very much has its place in, for example, writing paragraphs of description. If you're describing a scene, and there's no character immediately involved, then writing it in the passive voice is a very natural choice.

[Crossroad Press]

Agreed...I don't fall in the group that believes passive voice is never correct. That's crazy talk. I just think when something happens, it should happen as directly as possible in fiction. One of my pet peeves is when someone says "He could hear them from where he stood," when "He heard them" works just fine. It's right up there for me with lines like (I actually saw this in a book). "He kicked it with his foot." How else, pray tell, could he kick it? Even if he used someone else's foot, he'd be HITTING it then, right?

[orlok]

One of my favourites is the Africaans phrase translated directly into English (which I have been threatened with), "I'll throw you with a stone!"

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by Crossroad Press

It's right up there for me with lines like (I actually saw this in a book). "He kicked it with his foot." How else, pray tell, could he kick it?

Shin kick. Comes in from the side in a cut/chop motion, and hits it's target with the edge of the shin bone. Used mainly at short range and against your opponent's lower leg or knee. Bone is hard, and it takes very little force to hit hard with it, so it tends to hurt quite a bit.

Though I do agree with you that unless you are writing a detailed description of a fight involving at least one trained martial artist, there is no need to specify, as 99% of readers will make the same assumption you made. Unless of course you want to be really nitpicky and say that the body part that kicks is actually the leg, and the foot is merely the part of the leg that connects when you kick someone or something.

[Crossroad Press]

Originally Posted by ScalyFreak

Shin kick. Comes in from the side in a cut/chop motion, and hits it's target with the edge of the shin bone. Used mainly at short range and against your opponent's lower leg or knee. Bone is hard, and it takes very little force to hit hard with it, so it tends to hurt quite a bit.

But isn't a "shin kick" a different thing from a kick? If so, the only time I can see any need to mention it is if it IS a shin kick, and will blissfully continue believing other kicks are more traditional, unless, of course, obtained on Route 66.

[stickybuns]

Originally Posted by Crossroad Press

Also, to chime in on the passive voice. I believe passive voice has its place, but I also believe that it's overuse (which is far too common) removes the immediacy from your writing. I find excessive passive voice one of the most irritating stylistic choices ever. And I am also an old fogey (at least of the half century variety).

"The tea party came to a porcelain shattering halt as Nathaniel came stumbling into the room, his white polo shirt rapidly growing crimson. 'I've been shot!' he cried out as he collapsed upon the chaise lounge. The ladies of the Davenport Street Book and Tea Lovers Club cringed: blood stains can be such a bother."

vs.

"The tea party came to a porcelain shattering halt as Nathaniel came stumbling into the room, his white polo shirt rapidly growing crimson. 'Someone has shot me!' he cried out as he collapsed upon the chaise lounge. The ladies of the Davenport Street Book and Tea Lovers Club cringed: blood stains can be such a bother."