Is today's SF too pessimistic?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

As Wikipedia notes, everyone's definition seems to be different. And unless we go by the original "hacky, grinding, stinking, outworn, spaceship yarn", our definitions are wrong. :P In my day, it was basically synonymous with "space western" - spaceships instead of horses, aliens instead of Indians, and almost inevitably a war setting...

In one person's mind, Space Opera is derived from Grand Opera, in others, it's derived from Soap Opera.

I see it as the former: Princesses, Galactic Lords, Good vs. Evil, ie Star Wars. I can so see Leia in a Valkyrie helmet doing an aria.
You seem to see it as the latter: light melodrama, but the western association, I don't get....maybe you associate it with "Grand Ol' Opry?"

ApK

[ApK]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Firefly is evidence that Tucker had it all wrong, precisely because it is *exacty* a space western wthout being space opera. It is a character-based piece, after all.

Whedon took the idea of "Space Western" and created something in Firefly that was so on-the-nose, you'd think he was going over the top to make fun of the idea, but instead he essentially simultaneously redefined the term and created the epitome of the genre.

[JD Gumby]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

I remain amazed that Whedon got away with an actual train robbery.

Given what I've seen of his fandom, I'm not at all amazed. (remember, "fan" is short for "fanatic", which describes that crowd perfectly)

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Firefly was great because the narrative was built around the characters and the characters were recognizably human and with one exception far from super-human. Or even particularly noble or heroic. (By any definition of "hero".)

Its so rare to see this on TV, in any genre. Having it in a Sci-Fi setting... Dollhouse, Caprica, BSG, all excellent IMO, and only BSG got a good run.

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Labeling it optimistic or pessimistic pretty much depends on their success in doing so. I'd say Firefly was optimistic, considering they always managed to keep on flying.

That's my take too. That was in essence Mal's goal and he succeeded. The pure simplicity and honesty of this is also what makes the series so captivating for me.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'd say Firefly's optimism or pessimism was completely irrelevant to those that it resonated so strongly with... of which I'm one.

I disagree, see above.

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

Given what I've seen of his fandom, I'm not at all amazed. (remember, "fan" is short for "fanatic", which describes that crowd perfectly)

Tsk, tsk. Sweeping judgements make the baby Jesus cry...

[xg4bx]

whether its positive or pessimistic we need more real science fiction out there in the market place. period.

other than a handful of established names keeping the faith, much of what passes for 'science fiction' on store shelves isn't much more than fan fiction inspired by the Halo video games. and far too many newer authors would rather write yet another zombie novel than get into the sf field.

imo it's mainly the indies/smaller presses carrying the hard sf genre now and if it weren't for them it would be pretty much dead.

[ApK]

Wow, this thread is really making me want to turn my hand to writing some SF.

[JD Gumby]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

Tsk, tsk. Sweeping judgements make the baby Jesus cry...

When the "sweeping judgements" are based on 15 years of observing the fandom, they make no one cry - except those who realize they are actually included in the judgement.

Originally Posted by xg4bx

other than a handful of established names keeping the faith, much of what passes for 'science fiction' on store shelves isn't much more than fan fiction inspired by the Halo video games.

Given that Space Marine SF's been around since at least 1959's "Starship Troopers" and became permanently entrenched as a sci-fi staple with 1986's "Aliens", I really doubt Halo's inspired much new work, even with the latest generation.

[benburrell]

Sorry, coming late to the thread, but was intrigued by the subject. I just finished reading Hamilton's Pandora's Star and was thinking about this exact thing. It made me think of Snowcrash and how extremely different their two visions of the future were.

Both are very popular with large readerships, but are the same people reading both? Do the same people who love optimistic SF also love cyberpunk? I'm thinking back to the friends who first turned me to Stephenson. At least with them, they did not read other SF. Other suggestions from them were things like, Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian. Talk about pessimistic.

I have to say, I loved Hamiton's view of the future. I think the point of the article was spot on - you need a hopeful outlook on the future, just to keep going. You need a commonly accepted road map of the future, and it has to be something that people want to build towards. If all you see is darkness ahead, what the point.

Snowcrash on the other hand, was excellent in the ways Blood Merrian. Its a voice of warning, showing you what you definitely do not want. I wouldn't want my kids growing up in the world of Snowcrash. And the point seemed to be, if we as a society keep doing this and this, then logically it will lead to a future america that looks like this. I mean, we already have a floating island of trash in the pacific. So Stephenson isn't extrapolating that far.

I think, in the end, both authors have a similar view of what they'd like the future to look like. I think they're just looking at different aspects of the problem in getting us there.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JD Gumby

Given that Space Marine SF's been around since at least 1959's "Starship Troopers" and became permanently entrenched as a sci-fi staple with 1986's "Aliens", I really doubt Halo's inspired much new work, even with the latest generation.

Whatever the inspiration, the point is that we have a LOT of same old-same old space marines SF, a subgenre that effectively ran its course long ago.

SF could use an infusion of new and inspirational ideas; in many areas, it's getting bogged down by the same themes, being handled the same way. Dystopia is one of those areas, thematically simple and in need of development into something more realistic.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Whatever the inspiration, the point is that we have a LOT of same old-same old space marines SF, a subgenre that effectively ran its course long ago.

I disagree in principal and in the particular. Just because people do a lot of derivitive stuff in a genre doesn't mean that a brilliant idea won't come along tomorrow that raises the genre to a new level.
(like firefly did for space westerns imho)

SF could use an infusion of new and inspirational ideas; in many areas, it's getting bogged down by the same themes, being handled the same way. Dystopia is one of those areas, thematically simple and in need of development into something more realistic.

If I see one more post-apocalyptic dystopian vampire zombie anything I may cry, but I don' think realism is what's lacking. Unreality is an important part of SF in my book. Of course,writing that allows for suspension of disbelief is important.

Speaking of post-apocalyptic dystopia, Steve, Hunger Games depressed me too much, so Kestral is now up. It better have a happy ending!

[mike_bike_kite]

I believe that even the pessimistic SF is quite likely a little too optimistic. If, as it seems likely, we run out of oil in the next few decades then every part of modern civilisation collapses. I suspect even the concept of SF will just become a distant memory. Not only will we have no energy, we'll have no food or any way to transport what food there is. What's worse is we'll then have a global population of 9 billion. Before oil the planet only used to be able to support 1-2 billion which means we'll likely have to loose 7 billion people. I'm guessing that won't be pretty.

The sad thing is that all this is likely to occur in my lifetime (just). In my old age I'm not expecting to be admiring the stars from the surface of Mars, I'm expecting I'll be foraging for a living here on Earth

[RDaneel54]

Originally Posted by mike_bike_kite

I believe that even the pessimistic SF is quite likely a little too optimistic. If, as it seems likely, we run out of oil in the next few decades then every part of modern civilisation collapses. I suspect even the concept of SF will just become a distant memory. Not only will we have no energy, we'll have no food or any way to transport what food there is. What's worse is we'll then have a global population of 9 billion. Before oil the planet only used to be able to support 1-2 billion which means we'll likely have to loose 7 billion people. I'm guessing that won't be pretty.

The sad thing is that all this is likely to occur in my lifetime (just). In my old age I'm not expecting to be admiring the stars from the surface of Mars, I'm expecting I'll be foraging for a living here on Earth

Assuming you are part of the 1 - 2 billion left.

Or maybe we'll find sufficient other sources of energy to survive and thrive.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

I remain amazed that Whedon got away with an actual train robbery.

How familiar are you with Whedon shows?
(Or Sergio Aragones' GROO THE BARBARIAN?)

Whedon has gotten away with far, far "worse"...

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Whatever the inspiration, the point is that we have a LOT of same old-same old space marines SF, a subgenre that effectively ran its course long ago.

SF could use an infusion of new and inspirational ideas; in many areas, it's getting bogged down by the same themes, being handled the same way. Dystopia is one of those areas, thematically simple and in need of development into something more realistic.

The problem is , as always, its a lot easier to re-write the same stuff, than write out a bright and inspirational new idea. Think of how often Herodotus' Anabasis has been re-written .


Also, too, for an audience of a certain political persuasion, the "Space Marines go in and solve everything through superior firepower" is a comforting meme that they like hearing over and over again .

[JD Gumby]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

How familiar are you with Whedon shows?
(Or Sergio Aragones' GROO THE BARBARIAN?)

Whedon has gotten away with far, far "worse"...

"Groo the Wanderer". Get it right and pass the cheese dip. And be careful not to mix it with the mulch.