Is today's SF too pessimistic?

[xg4bx]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That all looks like Fantasy to me (and there's a lot there I like, too )—not that I worry overly about the distinction between sci-fi and fantasy—but surely you're not saying you've had to stop reading SFF because you can't find anything that satisfies your needs? That small list can't be causing you that much grief compared to what you can enjoy, can it?

I just think we need to be careful about what we're actually saying. Are we saying; "I wish there was more upbeat and positive scifi"? Or are we saying; "I wish gritty, seedy, morally-ambiguous scifi wasn't as popular as it seems to be right now"? I'm OK with the first (although I still believe there's more than enough variety in the genre to satisfy everyone's needs), but the second seems a little petty to me. I mean, the only time you should need to worry about stuff you don't like is if you've run out of stuff that you do like... right? Plus it's never a good idea to ponder too heavily on why something you don't particularly care for seems to be so popular. I try my very best not to give a damn what other people like to read and focus on what I like to read.

i think the problem is that everything is too grey. with all the reading i do very little stands out. it seems like far too many books i come across are murky and ambiguous, there really aren't heroes anymore, there's simply characters that are less scummy than other characters. there are far more anti-heroes than heroes. too many punishers, not enough supermen.

maybe i'm just noticing it more because its been brought up. but thinking back there really aren't many books i've read that have true heroes. very few are hopeful or have a positive outlook.

sf/fantasy i've read that does have a positive outlook/characters (imo)-

the Star Force series by BV Larson (indie). it concerns a computer professor who uses nanomachines to build weapons and ships to combat alien invaders. he lost his children to the invaders but he isn't driven by revenge. he learns from his mistakes. he doesn't dwell on failures. he thinks his way around problems instead of immediately resorting to violence. he's just a relatively upbeat character who shows the power of hope, logic and critical thinking over brute force.

Jerico the paladin (from various fantasy novels by David Dalglish. indie)- his faith drives him, not revenge. he uses violence as a last resort and feels bad when he is forced to use it. even in the face of horror he remains a pillar of strength. he's diplomatic, believes in justice and salvation for everyone and willing to accept punishment for his mistakes. hes a true hero yet nowhere near a 'pollyanna'.

those are the two that really stand out for me. as much as i do enjoy the Song of Ice and Fire series, even the kids in those books have a body count under their belt for god's sake. and imo there's far too many people trying to ape the GRRM style. when even kids become anti-heroes i've just gotta shake my head.

i really don't care that gritty is popular. i just wish there was more of the opposing view in genres i enjoy to balance it out a bit. i don't want flowers and puppy dogs, just a little less moral turmoil and more than a handful of characters i can cheer for would be nice.

[Belfaborac]

For my part, I love the grit, the murkiness and the moral turmoil. I've had thirty years or so of almost nothing but clean-cut, heroic, upstanding, nausea-inducing protagonists and I'll happily do without them for the next three decades. Not that I begrudge "the other side" their fluffy bunny rabbits stuffed with fragrant rose petals, but I certainly hope the pendulum doesn't begin to swing the other way any time soon.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by VaporPunk

If anyone could recommend a good SF work that is optimistic and well grounded in sciences (Both Social and Scientific) I would love to give it a try.

You might like to give a try to Robert J. Sawyer. He's generally pretty optimistic, and fairly scientifically grounded (and a fellow MR member author and a Canadian as well).

His latest published work, the WWW trilogy, is fairly upbeat and about joyous discovery of consciousness and awakening of a kind of AI in conjunction with specialized near-future-tech allowing the blind to see and the broader cultural impact of it all (disclaimer: I have not read the last book so maybe it all goes to hell in a handbasket).

The 1st novel, Wake, was nominated for a Hugo Award, and here's a page on the author's site with the other award noms and some info and chapter excerpts, if you're interested. He's also got some free short stories to try out (not all optimistic and some quite dark).

[VaporPunk]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Optimistic and happy all the way through? Or basically culminating in an optimistic/happy conclusion? There's scads of the latter IMO.

I guess being optimistic without being pollyanna. Or silly. With real characters that have depth but are not anti-heroes. No robot rebellions or alien bogey men allowed. Realistic but not too gritty. Optimistic about humanity and technology. In a reasonably near future setting, not like the "Culture" novels by Banks. (Edit-Not saying that the "Culture" is realistic and gritty, just using it as an example of far-future SF.)

Oh. And no ennui allowed either.

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

GRRM's entire body of work

Since we're talking (mostly) fantasy here, I'll take GRRM over RA Salvatore and his ilk any day.

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

For my part, I love the grit, the murkiness and the moral turmoil. I've had thirty years or so of almost nothing but clean-cut, heroic, upstanding, nausea-inducing protagonists and I'll happily do without them for the next three decades. Not that I begrudge "the other side" their fluffy bunny rabbits stuffed with fragrant rose petals, but I certainly hope the pendulum doesn't begin to swing the other way any time soon.

Agreed. I'll take GRRM over RA Salvatore any day. Did I say that already?

Originally Posted by ATDrake

You might like to give a try to Robert J. Sawyer. He's generally pretty optimistic, and fairly scientifically grounded (and a fellow MR member author and a Canadian as well).

You say Canadian like its a good thing.

Spoiler:

JK Canada is 99.99% Pure Awesomium!

(Edit-Apologies for the silliness, morning caffeine rush and all)

Thanks for the tip, I will check this out.
Edit - I did check this out, looks really interesting and affordable. Thanks again.

[xg4bx]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

For my part, I love the grit, the murkiness and the moral turmoil. I've had thirty years or so of almost nothing but clean-cut, heroic, upstanding, nausea-inducing protagonists and I'll happily do without them for the next three decades. Not that I begrudge "the other side" their fluffy bunny rabbits stuffed with fragrant rose petals, but I certainly hope the pendulum doesn't begin to swing the other way any time soon.

i like characters that get in there and get their hands dirty. but at the end of the day there's still some (albeit battered) goodness at their core.

i've said in another thread i simply can't stomach the 'innocent farm boy hero with magic trinket' so prevalent in epic fantasy. i just don't believe it on the basis of sheer logic. i also don't believe said character would remain 'good' after their journey, they'd have some serious issues.

since GRRM is often mentioned, i would consider somebody like jon snow a complex, yet fundamentally good, character. same for the starks. rough around their edges, willing to get dirty when need be, but fundamentally good. i suppose i was too hasty in my previous post.

i guess i generally just don't like my heroes to go below chaotic neutral/neutral good. like batman .

[Sil_liS]

Can the people who want (at least sometimes) stories without gritty realism give an example? Because I was thinking about books that I liked, that give a warm and fuzzy feeling as a whole because there is a happy end, but all the example that I could think of had torture, betrayal, loved ones that died tragically or just some kind of deep rooted desperation that the main character overcomes at the end.

[DrNefario]

I think the gritty fantasy trend is partly because of the success of GRRM. Every successful thing is copied, either as a cynical cash-in, or just through inspiring the people who loved it.

Personally, I got quite fed up with the sanitised theme-park fantasyland that a lot of epic fantasy used to take place in, so I'm happy to see some realistic grime.

I haven't noticed SF being particularly pessimistic, but I think it reflects popular attitudes to science. If you believe in climate change (or global warming, as we used to call it before dumbing down) then your future earth might not be a utopia, and if you don't then scientists are engaged in an evil conspiracy, which isn't exactly optimistic either.

Also, it's not easy to get a good story out of a happy and peaceful utopia.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That all looks like Fantasy to me (and there's a lot there I like, too )—not that I worry overly about the distinction between sci-fi and fantasy—but surely you're not saying you've had to stop reading SFF because you can't find anything that satisfies your needs? That small list can't be causing you that much grief compared to what you can enjoy, can it?

I just think we need to be careful about what we're actually saying. Are we saying; "I wish there was more upbeat and positive scifi"? Or are we saying; "I wish gritty, seedy, morally-ambiguous scifi wasn't as popular as it seems to be right now"? I'm OK with the first (although I still believe there's more than enough variety in the genre to satisfy everyone's needs), but the second seems a little petty to me. I mean, the only time you should need to worry about stuff you don't like is if you've run out of stuff that you do like... right? Plus it's never a good idea to ponder too heavily on why something you don't particularly care for seems to be so popular. I try my very best not to give a damn what other people like to read and focus on what I like to read.

I'm not looking to read science-fiction that inspires real scientists to invent the marvelous stuff they're reading about (I'm not sure today's scientists are even science-fiction fans, to tell the truth), but I'm sure if enough people do want to read books like that... someone's going to write them. They might never make the top of the best-seller list, but who cares? Read what you like and don't read what you don't like—and I'm betting you never run out of reading material you enjoy.

Note: the yous in my tl;dr post are not directed toward anyone in particular (except for the first few).

Well, I did say my list is shorter than most. I've made a habit of not taking the rec's from a lot of people. That list is what happens when I do take recs.

ANd speaking of GRRM...I tried twice to read that series...and twice I ended up giving the book(s) away. It was so...gory and gross and depressing and freaking SAD that I was just...

So, for all yall who would prefer GRRM (and I cannot understand why...although I have tried) yall missed out on a fire sale. I was giving those books away like hotcakes (HB, too). Couldn't even stand to have them in my house. *shudder*

I don't mind the sad stuff being out there...I just want to be able to avoid it better. I end up giving away a pretty big pile of books (which is rather painful for a book hoarder like myself) - or wasting money. Yall can have all the dark, gritty, sad, bloody books yall want. I just want people to stop pushing the "greatest new sff book out! You gotta read it!" bloody, gory, eat your face off stuff on me.

I've managed to keep myself out of the dystopian cesspool that has emerged by being thorough enough in review reading to dig out the spoilers.

I'm pretty out there with my dislike of anything nightmare inducing. I tell my friends and anyone who's trying to rec a book to me that I'm a wuss. I don't want my hero dying, raping or anything like that. I can take a dark-tinted story...but gosh darned it! there better be a light at the end of that tunnel!

So, for me...I'll take an elf riding a white winged unicorn over a rainbow while wielding a magic sword handed down from his super-hero unknown father saving the day over anything GRRM can ever conceive.

[DiapDealer]

ANd speaking of GRRM...I tried twice to read that series...and twice I ended up giving the book(s) away. It was so...gory and gross and depressing and freaking SAD that I was just...

My dislike for GRRM has nothing to do with "grittyness," despair or shades of gray. It's his refusal to "get to the frickin' point already!" that has caused me to wash my hands of him.

I find the trend of milking genre series' into far more books than they have story for (even by the most lenient of standards) to be vastly more damaging than a little grit and moral ambiguity could ever dream of being.

Someone point me to the new scifi project/consortium that has the one rule of; "No sequels, no prequels, no reusing of worlds/characters." Intended to inspire genre authors to create stories instead of franchises. That, I could throw my support behind.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

My dislike for GRRM has nothing to do with "grittyness," despair or shades of gray. It's his refusal to "get to the frickin' point already!" that has caused me to wash my hands of him.

I find the trend of milking genre series' into far more books than they have story for (even by the most lenient of standards) to be vastly more damaging than a little grit and moral ambiguity could ever dream of being.

Someone point me to the new scifi project/consortium that has the one rule of; "No sequels, no prequels, no reusing of worlds/characters." Intended to inspire genre authors to create stories instead of franchises. That, I could throw my support behind.

+1 (I would give you some karma for this, but it won't let me >.<)



I so agree! It's getting to be just a little tiring. Plus the fact that a lot of these serial writers should never try their hand at anything longer than a standalone. And I know someone will get all butt hurt over this but...The Kingkiller Series??!?! Why? Why are they door-stoppers? Where is the freaking story?? I gave up on The Name of the Wind about 2/3 of the way through as Kovth when I realized that nothing was ever going to happen and Kovth was going to continue to be a silly@ss while proclaiming his greatness. And just when I was about to pick it up again...I learned that nothing happened in book 2.

I'm going back to my habit of not reading a series until the entire thing is done. If it gets cancelled mid-series due to lack of sales...well, I didn't miss out on anything.

[BeccaPrice]

For optimistic, science-positive SF, I cannot recommend Lois Bujold too highly - her science-of-choice is biology, and I've been told by People Who Know that it's very good. I love her fantasy books too, which certainly are not unicorns and rainbows, but tend toward optimistic. The Sharing Knife books are wonderful, and Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls are two of my all-time favorite books.

[GeckoFriend]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

For optimistic, science-positive SF, I cannot recommend Lois Bujold too highly - her science-of-choice is biology, and I've been told by People Who Know that it's very good. I love her fantasy books too, which certainly are not unicorns and rainbows, but tend toward optimistic. The Sharing Knife books are wonderful, and Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls are two of my all-time favorite books.

I totally agree, especially the Sharing Knife books - some of my all time favorite books.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

And I know someone will get all butt hurt over this but...The Kingkiller Series??!?! Why? Why are they door-stoppers? Where is the freaking story?? I gave up on The Name of the Wind about 2/3 of the way through as Kovth when I realized that nothing was ever going to happen and Kovth was going to continue to be a silly@ss while proclaiming his greatness. And just when I was about to pick it up again...I learned that nothing happened in book 2.

I at least finished Name of the Wind, but that slog-fest certainly didn't inspire me to rush out and buy the next one. I figure someone will produce an abridged audio-book version someday... and maybe that will achieve what Rothfuss, his editor and publisher apparently failed to do.

But I digress...

[RDaneel54]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Can the people who want (at least sometimes) stories without gritty realism give an example? Because I was thinking about books that I liked, that give a warm and fuzzy feeling as a whole because there is a happy end, but all the example that I could think of had torture, betrayal, loved ones that died tragically or just some kind of deep rooted desperation that the main character overcomes at the end.

I've really enjoyed books by two authors I've discovered in the last year. Connie Willis, many Hugo and Nebula award winner, has a quirky writing style. People may die in her books, but it is part of life after all. As are good things that happen even with tragedy around.

The other author is Nathan Lowell. His Solar Clipper Trader Tales are reminiscent (not identical or derivative) of early Robert A. Heinlein. Again, life's joys, challenges and tragedies play out.

In both cases, the dystopia where there is no good, the best is a murky grey, is not the overarching theme. I like hope, not despair, from the books I read. YMMV

Dean

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by RDaneel54

I've really enjoyed books by two authors I've discovered in the last year. Connie Willis, many Hugo and Nebula award winner, has a quirky writing style. People may die in her books, but it is part of life after all. As are good things that happen even with tragedy around.

The other author is Nathan Lowell. His Solar Clipper Trader Tales are reminiscent (not identical or derivative) of early Robert A. Heinlein. Again, life's joys, challenges and tragedies play out.

In both cases, the dystopia where there is no good, the best is a murky grey, is not the overarching theme. I like hope, not despair, from the books I read. YMMV

Dean

I was thinking about this as an example of fun fiction. It gave me the general feeling of light reading, depicting a society different enough from our own to be interesting, with amusing dialogue and characters, and I was about to recommend it to MrsJoseph when I remembered that the main character gets tortured in the first book (the one that I linked to was followed by two others, and I see that there is another one to be published this year). The thing is that after the torture the main character decides to trust his friends and his own ability and becomes the hero (fixing the problem that he helped creating by mistake), and goes on to be the all around good guy.

But maybe people would consider it gritty.