Editors...

[VydorScope]

So just finished my third book (dont worry mod's I know the rules, LOL), and this was the first time I had the cash to hire an actual professional editor. Its pretty amazing the difference that makes. My wife is an awesome proofreader and she worked hard on my manuscript before we sent it off to the editor. We though we were around 80-90% done with finding issues with the text. But wow, the things she did to the text. I do not know how to describe it? Smooth it out maybe? Most of it was simple stuff like changing word order in sentence, removing over used expressions, and addressing repetitive words. She did catch a couple minor story issues we missed. One was I had someone referring to one of the characters by a name the would not be know by for another six chapters. Ops.

Over all I am very please with the difference this had made and it helps me see there really is a huge advantage to a professional edit. I knew it intellectually all along, but this makes it more real.

So this is my plug, go therefore and find an editor no matter how good you think you write!

[mr ploppy]

I still think a writing partner would work just as well.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

I still think a writing partner would work just as well.

I personally think that the editing skill and the writing skill are two completely different skills, and I think that they do not normally appear in the same person. So that even if you had a writing partner, you would still want a good editor.

[mr ploppy]

Maybe, but I would guess there are good editors and bad ones. I can spot editing problems in other people's writing that I can't see in my own (unless I leave it alone for a year or so, maybe then I could do it). I had another writer go through my zombie-type story recently, he picked up on stuff in that. And I picked up on stuff in his. That's the sort of thing I mean. You would need someone who writes in the same genre and understands how it works, I think you're more likely to find that among writers than editors.

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Maybe, but I would guess there are good editors and bad ones.

Of course there is, just as with anything. The editor I picked came recommended by another author, and worked with my genre.

Anyone can do some editing, the basics are not that hard. But there is a big difference in "hey lets swap stories for editing" and a professional editor in end result, IMO.

[phloxy]

As a professional editor (nonfiction), I do believe that editing is valuable. A fresh set of eyes will always catch things, but a good editor does more than just catch errors. Sometimes a sentence is grammatically correct but it's clunky or awkward. An entire paragraph can be grammatically perfect but still not flow well or be easy or pleasant to read. Transitions between paragraphs and presentation other aspects of writing that an editor can often fix or enhance. Grammar is but one aspect of writing well. Style and flow are also critical parts of good writing. Perfect grammar doesn't magically make someone's writing readable or even decent.

Congrats on finishing another book, VydorScope, and I'm glad that you found satisfaction working with an editor.

[EileenG]

Can I just chime in here to say that I happen to know VydorScope's editor, and that she is a professional with years of experience working for large publishing houses. She has edited for me as well, and caught all sorts of things in a novel that I thought was perfect.

A good editor really does make a huge difference.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

I still think a writing partner would work just as well.

I've used VydorScope's editor and I have a writing partner, and for me... it's just not the same.

My writing partner is incredibly creative and she spots a lot of interesting things, but she's (a) not looking for punctuation abuse (SEMI-COLONS! I LOVE THEM.) and (b) she has a very different creative bent.

My editor manages to strike the perfect balance of finding plot holes, concerns, errors, etc. without trying to change or affect the flavor I want to convey. That's something that no writing partner I've worked with can do -- there's just something about creative people that makes them want to "tweak" as opposed to neutrally inform.

Both my writing partner and my editor are invaluable; I wouldn't give either up. But they definitely do totally different things for my work.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

My writing partner is incredibly creative and she spots a lot of interesting things, but she's (a) not looking for punctuation abuse (SEMI-COLONS! I LOVE THEM.) and (b) she has a very different creative bent.

My editor manages to strike the perfect balance of finding plot holes, concerns, errors, etc. without trying to change or affect the flavor I want to convey. That's something that no writing partner I've worked with can do -- there's just something about creative people that makes them want to "tweak" as opposed to neutrally inform.

Are you not describing a proof reader there? I do all that stuff, but I don't call myself an editor. Editors to me are the people who cut out all the unnecesary self indulgent crap and/or rearrange chapters/plot points to make them flow better. Finding mistakes and punctuation abuse is an entirely different skillset, something that is severely lacking in both indie and professionally published books.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Are you not describing a proof reader there? I do all that stuff, but I don't call myself an editor. Editors to me are the people who cut out all the unnecesary self indulgent crap and/or rearrange chapters/plot points to make them flow better. Finding mistakes and punctuation abuse is an entirely different skillset, something that is severely lacking in both indie and professionally published books.

The editor in question proofs and finds plot holes and flow problems. She made several very good suggestions on the book I sent to her.

It may be a different skillset, but she is fluent at both.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Are you not describing a proof reader there? I do all that stuff, but I don't call myself an editor. Editors to me are the people who cut out all the unnecesary self indulgent crap and/or rearrange chapters/plot points to make them flow better

Your description of an editor is what we call, in the U.S., a developmental editor. The DE is less concerned with grammar and punctuation except incidentally. The copyeditor focuses on spelling grammar, punctuation and the like, but does not rearrange chapters or delete paragraphs, which is the job of the developmental editor.

A proofreader makes sure that in the composition stage new errors haven't been introduced and acts as a final check for consistency and spelling. Although a proofreader may catch some grammar errors, that is not the focus of their job.

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Finding mistakes and punctuation abuse is an entirely different skillset, something that is severely lacking in both indie and professionally published books.

This is a copyeditor's job and the reason it is lacking is because no one wants to pay for the service, or if they do hire a copyeditor, the demands are such that it is impossible for the copyeditor to do a good job (e.g., I was recently asked to copyedit a technical book of 2,500 manuscript pages in 4 weeks. A job of that size requires at least 12 weeks to do well).

The other problem is that copyeditors are often hired based on price, not on skill level.

[VydorScope]

I use both a proof reader, and an editor. My proof reader gets first and last dibs at the project. Editor sits in between.

I need all the help I can afford!

[Andanzas]

I am curious: why don't you mention the name of your wonderful editor? If I like the work of a writer, I don't hesitate to mention his name. Don't you think she would welcome the publicity?

[EileenG]

Originally Posted by Andanzas

I am curious: why don't you mention the name of your wonderful editor? If I like the work of a writer, I don't hesitate to mention his name. Don't you think she would welcome the publicity?

I'll pm you her details if you like. I do know she wants to keep control over what jobs she accepts. Word of mouth works both ways. She'd like to have an assurance from someone she knows that the writer she is working with will behave like a professional too.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by EileenG

She'd like to have an assurance from someone she knows that the writer she is working with will behave like a professional too.

Very smart editor . It is one of the reasons why I stopped working directly with authors 25 years ago -- too many were lacking in professionalism.

Even now I get manuscript with the instruction to make no changes other than an obvious misspelling because the author will reject all other changes or suggestions and throw a hissy fit.