Access to Knowledge: YEA or NAY

[Freeshadow]

timebank troubles in a nutshell:

what if somebody works (extremely) slower than average squeezing more payment out? how calculating average speed without significant losses on quality?
let's say 1 time unit of labour which doesn't need extra qualifications but manpower only costs one credit; thus 1 timeunit of highly specilized work should cost more because there has been time invested to get said skill and knowledge: who is responsible for all the formulas needed to evaluate the timevalue?

[QuantumIguana]

Lets say if I want my house painted. I have some certificates for labor. One laborer paints my house in 10 hours, and another paints my house in 20 hours. It is not possible for the labor to be valued the same, because the work gets done in half the time with first laborer than the second.

Also, I have a wallet full of labor certificates. If I want some work done, it would be a mess to collect the right certificates. I need 10 hours worth of labor from the faster painter to paint my house. If I only have four, I have to hunt around until I have traded to get 10 hours of the painter's labor certificates in my hand. If I have labor certificates from the slower painter, people aren't going to accept them in equal exchange, because they aren't equal.

Of course, all this has nothing to do with whether authors should get paid. If authors shouldn't be paid, then why should they paid in timebank script?

A timebank can work only at the margins, as a supplement at best to traditional money. They could work for fungible services, an hour of babysitting might be more or less the same as any othe hour of babysitting.

Originally Posted by Giggleton

All labor is of equal value in that it contributes in some way to the culture. If there is a bad carpenter and a good carpenter, perhaps the good carpenter should use their time to help the bad carpenter become better.

Some forms of labour do make greater contributions of society and some labourers are better at their trade. Assigning a monetary value to time also helps tackle other problems. It allows us to make a translation between the value of labour and the value of physical goods. It also allows us to tackle the problem of skill scarcity.

[QuantumIguana]

It is not possible to value all labor equally unless exchange rates are forced. Let's say Al wants his house painted. If Joe paints twice as fast as Bob, Al would value a Joe's certificate twice as much as Bob's. Al might give two sacks of potatoes in exchange for Joe's certificate, while only giving one sack of potatoes in exchange for Bob's. Therefore, the labor is not valued equally. Value is a human measure made by humans.

You could try to force an equal level of exchange, by declaring that one hour of labor is equal to one pound of potatoes. What incentive does Joe have to work as efficiently as he does, when he can get the same goods for his services as does Bob? And how would you enforce this? If Al demands two hours of Bob's labor for a sack of potatoes, will jackbooted thugs step in and force him to accept it?

[Freeshadow]

as I pointed out before: If you need multiple years of study in order to aquire knowledge to be able to do a specific kind of labour (be it carpentry, masonry, or tailoring etc.) such a specialists workhour must be valued more than plain manpower work like e.g. unloading cargo the learning time works in some way as value multiplier.
calculating this for every branch is already a mamooth-task, in addition to you d' need to calculate average worktime. to assure that more efficient workers ar not te loosers in the system.
go figure the complexity

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

as I pointed out before: If you need multiple years of study in order to aquire knowledge to be able to do a specific kind of labour (be it carpentry, masonry, or tailoring etc.) such a specialists workhour must be valued more than plain manpower work like e.g. unloading cargo the learning time works in some way as value multiplier.
calculating this for every branch is already a mamooth-task, in addition to you d' need to calculate average worktime. to assure that more efficient workers ar not te loosers in the system.
go figure the complexity

What you end up with, when all is said and done, is "money" with extra restrictions.

Timebanks are a stupid idea that will never come to fruition; they're not feasible in a complex global economy. Which has nothing to do with authors being forced to do slave labor so Giggles can read the latest Twilight or Harry Potter for free.

[wannabee]

Ditto
Yep it's just money with another name.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

What doesn't help anyone is pessimism.

We are very optimistic that your ideas won't be implemented.

[Freeshadow]

the only difference 'd be no loans, no interest and a value fix.
rough formula for payment:

worktime*(edu_modifier=fraction of average learning time for skillset) =workhour_value

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

What doesn't help anyone is pessimfreeloadism.

Fixed your post

Don't ask what your (favourite) author can do for you - ask what you can do for your author. (since said fellow must have already done enough - otherwise s/he 'd never become somebodys favourite)

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

the only difference 'd be no loans, no interest and a value fix.
rough formula for payment:

worktime*(edu_modifier=faction of average learning time for skillset) =workhour_value

Would be interesting to find out what work Giggleton will provide? He is probably counting his spending time here "educating" us as contribution enough to get everything for free.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Don't ask what your (favourite) author can do for you - ask what you can do for your author. (since said fellow must have already done enough - otherwise s/he 'd never become somebodys favourite)

I would gladly market/promote and edit works by my favorite authors in exchange for reading their work. Perhaps I would even pay for their texts, usually this would require the freedom to access and distribute their work without copyright restrictions...

The way most of you describe timebanks makes it sound like money. I view timebanks as just a bit of bookkeeping to keep things organized. It does require a bit of a communistic/socialist/anarchic mindset to see timebanks working on a large scale.

It's sort of like a free market where only those who believe in freedom can participate. Meaning no exploitation.

[howyoudoin]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

I would gladly market/promote and edit works by my favorite authors in exchange for reading their work.

There's nothing stopping you from trying that now. Go on. Suit up, blow the dust off the old resume and start getting interviewed.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by howyoudoin

There's nothing stopping you from trying that now. Go on. Suit up, blow the dust off the old resume and start getting interviewed.

Yes there is something stopping me from doing that, and that something is called copyright. Why should I have to ask permission from an author before reworking their text and redistributing it? (Because it would be the nice thing to do?)For free of course, all proceeds to the author, unless of course there are agreeable compensation terms determined in advance.

[ucfgrad93]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Why should I have to ask permission from an author before reworking their text and redistributing it?

Are you really asking this question? The author created the work not you. You have no right to rework the text without their permission.