Amazon offers indie authors reward for going exclusive

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Unfortunately, they can. The purchase terms make it clear that you are buying a temporary, revocable-at-will license. You are not purchasing the book as you do when you buy a pbook. This is one of the major distinctions between pbooks and ebooks and a major basis for complaints about ebooks.

Do you have a cite for that. I looked over the TOS and haven't found anyplace where the terms stated that you were buying a "temporary, revocable at will license." And I don't believe it.

What's happened in the more recent cases is not that Amazon has revoked anyone's right to the books they purchased. Instead, Amazon canceled their accounts and since the people hadn't downloaded the books they bought to their devices, they no longer had access to them on Amazon's servers. Which is not the same thing.

[ProfCrash]

The license has been removed on more than one occasion from more than one store. When Agency Pricing took hold some of the independent booksellers had this happen. If people had not downloaded the books they lost access to them.

[DiapDealer]

I think it's important to remember that taking away the ability to re-download your initial purchase/license (whatever) whenever you want, doesn't really have anything to do with your license to use the copies already in your possession (I mean legal use, of course). Those are two separate things.

Even if your online account is shut down and/or you lose access to your previous "licensed" files... you're still perfectly within your rights to continue to use/read the copies that are already on your device/app (provided the initial purchase was "legal"). Nobody's demanding that users immediately delete legally licensed copies of ebooks from devices/apps when someone signs an exclusivity deal. And no one should be trusting any company to keep copies of all their purchases on their servers until the end of time anyway.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful?

It's not that Amazon is beautiful; it's that she is rich. If you want to ride in her Mercedes, boy, you have to play by her rules.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think it's important to remember that taking away the ability to re-download your initial purchase/license (whatever) whenever you want, doesn't really have anything to do with your license to use the copies already in your possession (I mean legal use, of course). Those are two separate things.

Even if your online account is shut down and/or you lose access to your previous "licensed" files... you're still perfectly within your rights to continue to use/read the copies that are already on to your device/app (provided the initial purchase was "legal"). Nobody's demanding that users immediately delete legally licensed copies of ebooks from devices/apps when someone signs an exclusivity deal. And no one should be trusting any company to keep copies of all their purchases on their servers until the end of time anyway.

Right. Also, too, Amazon cannot revoke its license "at will'. That would be a breach of contract, entitling you to general damages ( usually, a refund of the price).

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Do you have a cite for that. I looked over the TOS and haven't found anyplace where the terms stated that you were buying a "temporary, revocable at will license." And I don't believe it.

If you look at just the title of the TOS at Amazon, it says "license". (See http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...deId=200506200)

The terms for the digital content read as follows:

1. Digital Content

Use of Digital Content. Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Digital Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Digital Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.

Limitations. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content.

The TOS goes on to say:

4. General

Compliance with Law and Reservation of Rights. You will use the Kindle, the Software, the Service, and the Digital Content in compliance with all applicable laws. Neither the sale or transfer of the Kindle to you, nor the license of the Software or Digital Content to you, transfers to you title to or ownership of any intellectual property rights of Amazon or its suppliers or the other Content Providers. All licenses are non-exclusive and all rights not expressly granted in this Agreement are reserved to Amazon or the other Content Providers.

Since you do not own anything and are a licensee, it is terminable at any time by Amazon, which is also stated in the TOS as follows:

Changes to Service. We may modify, suspend, or discontinue the Service, in whole or in part, at any time.

making this a license that is revocable at will by Amazon. I'm not sure how much clearer it can be.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Right. Also, too, Amazon cannot revoke its license "at will'. That would be a breach of contract, entitling you to general damages ( usually, a refund of the price).

If you read the TOS, you will see that this is simply not correct. Amazon reserves the right to cancel the service at any time and you specifically agree that Amazon has no liability if it does.

[stonetools]

Termination of "Service" is not the same as revocation of the "license":

"Service" means the wireless connectivity that we provide Kindle users, the provision of Digital Content, Software, and support and other services that we provide Kindle and Reading Application users, and the terms and conditions under which we provide each of the foregoing.

You also have a limited right to sue:

Disputes. Any dispute or claim relating in any way to your use of the Kindle, Reading Applications or Kindle Store, or the goods or services sold or distributed by Amazon or through the Kindle, Reading Applications or Kindle Store, will be resolved by binding arbitration, rather than in court, except that you may assert claims in small claims court if your claims qualify. The Federal Arbitration Act and federal arbitration law apply to this agreement.

It is an Internet myth that a licensee has no rights at all, whereas only a purchaser has enforceable rights. Its more complicated than that, and really depends on the terms of the license.

As always, consult a lawyer before taking any legal action.

[teh603]

Originally Posted by stonetools

It is an Internet myth that a licensee has no rights at all, whereas only a purchaser has enforceable rights. Its more complicated than that, and really depends on the terms of the license.

As always, consult a lawyer before taking any legal action.

Actually "arbitration" is designed to keep such things out of court. You get shafted by Amazon when they cancel you without warning, and you get shafted again because you have *no* right to sue. The arbitrator always sides with the company that's paying their retainer.

Its criminal, but unfortunately legal.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by teh603

Actually "arbitration" is designed to keep such things out of court. You get shafted by Amazon when they cancel you without warning, and you get shafted again because you have *no* right to sue. The arbitrator always sides with the company that's paying their retainer.

Its criminal, but unfortunately legal.

You do have a right to sue.

except that you may assert claims in small claims court if your claims qualify

An arbiter's ruling can also be reviewed by a court , as the Agreement points out.
You don't have unlimited rights to sue, but you do have some rights. Generally, since the extent of damages involve book refunds, Small claims court may be enough. My understanding it that Amazon Customer Service has a liberal refund policy.

[SeaKing]

Originally Posted by teh603

Actually "arbitration" is designed to keep such things out of court. You get shafted by Amazon when they cancel you without warning, and you get shafted again because you have *no* right to sue. The arbitrator always sides with the company that's paying their retainer.

Its criminal, but unfortunately legal.

I am confused. I see all these cries of doom and destruction coming.
I see arguments about how many TOSs can dance on your screen.
I see everything except an actual case of the great Satan Amazon being "criminal."

Is it the kool-aid? What are you guys drinking that is giving you such nightmares?
I suggest you put away the kool-aid, go straight, and fly right.

[ProfCrash]

Everyone is worried about being the rare event, the person whose account is closed down with no explanation.

[Andrew H.]

If you look at just the title of the TOS at Amazon, it says "license". (See http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...deId=200506200)

Yes, it is a license.

1. Digital Content

Use of Digital Content. Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Digital Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Digital Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.

Limitations. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content.

The relevant provision is: "Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. "
[/quote]

IOW, you have the specific right to view, use and display the digital content (i.e., the book) on your Kindles as often as you want.

There is no at-will revocation provision.

Compliance with Law and Reservation of Rights. You will use the Kindle, the Software, the Service, and the Digital Content in compliance with all applicable laws. Neither the sale or transfer of the Kindle to you, nor the license of the Software or Digital Content to you, transfers to you title to or ownership of any intellectual property rights of Amazon or its suppliers or the other Content Providers. All licenses are non-exclusive and all rights not expressly granted in this Agreement are reserved to Amazon or the other Content Providers.


Since you do not own anything and are a licensee, it is terminable at any time by Amazon, which is also stated in the TOS as follows:

No, that doesn't follow at all. A license is a grant of specific rights, and they can't be unilaterally taken away any more than the state department of transportation can unilaterally revoke your driver's license.

Changes to Service. We may modify, suspend, or discontinue the Service, in whole or in part, at any time.

making this a license that is revocable at will by Amazon. I'm not sure how much clearer it can be.

As was pointed out upthread, the "Service" means the wireless service.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by SeaKing

I am confused. I see all these cries of doom and destruction coming.
I see arguments about how many TOSs can dance on your screen.
I see everything except an actual case of the great Satan Amazon being "criminal."

Is it the kool-aid? What are you guys drinking that is giving you such nightmares?
I suggest you put away the kool-aid, go straight, and fly right.

*sigh* This is why we can't have nice things, I guess.

Look, this started because I pointed out the fact that when an indie author pulls a book from the B&N store, the reader can no longer download the book they bought.

Someone -- I won't even bother to check -- said, "I realize that B&N has scores of lawyers and I myself have zero legal training whatsoever, however, that must be against the law."

The Amazon TOS has been provided to demonstrate that, no, not really. That is all.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful?

There are plenty of other reasons to hate you.