Errors due to format conversion - publisher's responsibility?

[flipreads]

I think people need to understand publishing is complex and it's not readily transparent.

Depending on the specific "error," there's usually at least two possibilities.

First off, when we talk about print publishers, note that their specialty is usually print (various publishers will specialize in electronic publishing as well but as far as most of the imprints of the Big Six are concerned, it's print). So their editing process will follow this trajectory, with eBook publishing tacked on later in the production cycle. (This doesn't necessarily make this wrong or a bad thing, but it's necessary to understand this to understand where errors crop up.)

One of the benefits of a traditional publisher is "editing." This is, in a way, a misnomer because there are several types of editing involved (which may require several different editors or a few editors doing double/triple duty of different roles). I'll skip Developmental and Substantive editing (it's an important step but the reader won't really know what the editor did and didn't do--and making the right call is always going to be subjective) and as far as errors are concerned, skip to Copyediting and Proofreading (note: they are not the same!).

Copyeditors take note of errors. However, depending on the hierarchy/contract/deadline (sometimes the publisher makes a judgment call on who gets the last word), some errors go through, either due to the copy editor or to the author (again, who has the last say depends on the hierarchy of the publishing house and the particular set of circumstances). Theoretically, there should be a perfect manuscript but that's an ideal, perhaps even naive situation (especially with a looming deadline). Instead of a book ridiculed with a few hundred errors, it might just end up with just a dozen, thanks to a good copy editor (which isn't to say an editor doesn't strive for perfection).

Proofreader is usually a role in print publishing. They compare the proofs (the pre-print run output from the press) with the manuscript, making sure they're identical. Arguably, especially for print-to-ebook publishers, there's a new role to be filled with proofreaders who check the eBook against the print copy. I work for a company that does professional conversion and this is included in our service. But suffice to say, if the text of the print book is the same as the eBook, the proofreader did their job. (And if there's a screw up, well, it could be the proofreaders's fault, or the retailer's fault, depending on its submission process. If there's an error in Smashwords or Amazon, it's possible they're at fault, especially when you're familiar with their process. If it's an eBook from Barnes & Noble or iTunes, it's the publisher (and while it's annoying how long iTunes takes long to publish or get approval, they actually check the document to see if it meets all their requirements before publishing).

Then there's the actual conversion of the document, whether to ePub or Mobi. If you use conversion software, the most atrocious being PDF --> Calibre, then the document WILL HAVE errors. Publisher's fault, or whoever they passed the conversion job to.

Of course even if the conversion was done right, there should be a target platform in mind. Not all ePubs are equal. If you look at the ePub submission guidelines for Barnes & Noble vs. iTunes for example, they'll have different specs for embedded covers. Apple's iBooks also has different capabilities (supports Fixed Layout for example) than the Sony Reader for example. (One example is embedded fonts: not all readers support embedded fonts.) Anyone who's coded HTML circa 1990s will understand the problem of not knowing the reader's resolution or web browser (Netscape vs. Internet Explorer have different outputs for example). Theoretically, publishers should test it against every device but that's also not realistic (just count the number of Android phones out there for example). The best solution is to test it against major platforms. (So if the ePub works in one device but not in another, we can't really say the publisher didn't do their job that well, especially if it's an uncommon device.)

Having said that, there are signs when someone just ran the document through a meat-grinder as opposed to effectively coding it. If you suddenly see dashes in the middle of a line (i.e. "hesi-tate"), that's probably a result of this print layout which the conversion software didn't properly render:

.... hesi-
tate....

Not the retailer's fault but the converter/publisher.

After that, there's the submission process. Smashwords and Amazon have their automated process, which can lead to some errors, depending on the source file. Even a theoretically clean and "perfect" file can end up with the occasional error, and sometimes, there's no way to fix this, or discovering what caused the specific error isn't readily transparent. What can be hard to determine by the reader/consumer is whether this error was present before the file was submitted to the retailer (publisher's fault), or after (retailer's fault).

[Krystl]

OMG so well written everyone.

As a translator and coywriter and proofreader (yes, the one that gets paid for "doing nothing" but man is that A LOT of nothing)--never more than one position in the same work--it is really frustrating to not be understood. I have always said that is the "secret workings" of a good publisher. (My bf took forever to realize exactly what I do and how much work it is but that is another story ) Cutting corners = lower quality = not good.

I agree that there should be another level of editing/processing for ebooks--"conversion proofreaders" (???). Checking their texts on available devices to make sure the conversion displays well. And yes, that will make the ebooks have more editing cost offsetting a bit the savings on print materials.

I guess for me, the problem came with having not understood that amazon et al. actually change something in the product (e-text) through their conversion for sales making it not function the way it did beforehand. This would only affect the formatting, however, not the copy text, correct? That is new information for me and rather disappointing, actually. When the retailer/device company changes or alters the ebook through conversion or the programming of their devices and the rendering there is errored, than for me that is their fault (provided the ebook renders well on other devices/programs).

And that means I should be giving recogntion to those working for publishers who actively work in the "background" to fix these bugs.

Karma to all!

[Jyster]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A lot of eBooks start out as PDF. So yes, the conversion process can and does introduce errors.

Most books start out as either InDesign books, and thats not pdf, but you can save it as a pdf, or Quarkxpress book. Both of these files are eps compatible for the Printers to set up.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by Krystl

I guess for me, the problem came with having not understood that amazon et al. actually change something in the product (e-text) through their conversion for sales making it not function the way it did beforehand. This would only affect the formatting, however, not the copy text, correct? That is new information for me and rather disappointing, actually. When the retailer/device company changes or alters the ebook through conversion or the programming of their devices and the rendering there is errored, than for me that is their fault (provided the ebook renders well on other devices/programs).

I don't know about other stores, and I don't know how the process works for big publishers. With self-publishers, Amazon allow various formats to be submitted (Word, PDF, Mobi, ePub ... full list). Most of those will need to be converted before they can be displayed on a Kindle. I assume that if you upload a Mobi file, the only thing that will be changed is that DRM will be added if you select that option. That's my assumption, though - I don't have any insider knowledge

I get the impression that publishers submit ePubs, which Amazon then converts to Mobi. I'm basing this on the fact that the copyright page tends to say "ePub edition". If I'm right, then the publishers have to take at least some of the blame for not doing the conversion themselves.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by avantman42

I don't know about other stores, and I don't know how the process works for big publishers. With self-publishers, Amazon allow various formats to be submitted (Word, PDF, Mobi, ePub ... full list). Most of those will need to be converted before they can be displayed on a Kindle. I assume that if you upload a Mobi file, the only thing that will be changed is that DRM will be added if you select that option. That's my assumption, though - I don't have any insider knowledge

I get the impression that publishers submit ePubs, which Amazon then converts to Mobi. I'm basing this on the fact that the copyright page tends to say "ePub edition". If I'm right, then the publishers have to take at least some of the blame for not doing the conversion themselves.

Wait, wait, wait.

Speaking as someone who just went through this, publishers have two real options (I'm ignoring PDF/doc silliness): they can submit ePUB to Amazon or they can submit mobi to Amazon. And the mobi... comes from a conversion.

There is no way to write mobi directly. It's not like ePUB where there's a WYSIWYG tool like Sigil where you can tweak things until it's perfect. The only way to tweak a mobi "directly" is to turn it into HTML, tweak the raw HTML, and then turn that back into mobi. And that's *still* a conversion of sorts.

(And I would like to point out here that the ePUB-to-mobi conversion in Calibre is far superior to the ePUB-to-mobi conversion on Amazon.)

And it's my understanding that Amazon STILL converts the mobi in a mobi-to-mobi process, DRM or not.

It's not the publisher's fault if Amazon has implemented a proprietary format and refused to release tools for developing within that format directly. Yes, the publisher should proof the results, BUT at the end of the day, there's not a lot the publisher can do to force Amazon to make mobi easier to work in. I do think that the Big 6 can and should hire a whole division for this issue, but if we're talking an indie author, it's another thing entirely.

[anamardoll]

Oh, and another thing:

I uploaded my book to Amazon, and then bought the book so that I could see it on a Kindle app. I found one error and uploaded a correction to Amazon.

Since Amazon does not update users' versions automatically, I've had to send them three emails asking them to please update the version of my book on my account with the latest version. They're STILL trying to figure out how to do that.

And it takes up to 1 week for "look inside this book" to work AND that only covers a finite amount that (apparently) I can't change or increase.

So it's not even easy for the publisher to FIND these errors. Thanks, Amazon!

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Since Amazon does not update users' versions automatically, I've had to send them three emails asking them to please update the version of my book on my account with the latest version. They're STILL trying to figure out how to do that.

IIRC there's a checkbox for the author to check when uploading a new version so customers get the email Amazon sends out about updating the existing copy. At least that's what someone told me.


Make sure, as an author, when trying to get the newer version you're emailing kdp-support@amazon.com and not regular Kindle support.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

IIRC there's a checkbox for the author to check when uploading a new version so customers get the email Amazon sends out about updating the existing copy. At least that's what someone told me.

Make sure, as an author, when trying to get the newer version you're emailing kdp-support@amazon.com and not regular Kindle support.

1. No check box that I ever saw.

2. I did.

They finally got it fixed this morning. One more piece of evidence that our Mobile Read overlords are looking out for us little people. THANK YOU SCARY CLOWN FACE MODERATOR AND THE SHINY BALL FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE.

(That was a joke, before someone derails into MR Owns Amazon conspiracy theories.)

[JSWolf]

Here is what I don't get...

The author sends in an electronic document (usually Word) of the book. Since the publisher has an electronic version of the book, why is it we get errors that were not in the original submitted text or in the printed version?

I've used Calibre to convert HTML & Mobipocket to ePub and I have never once seen a textual error that wasn't in the source file. Formatting is a different story.

[AnemicOak]

I did think of one experience I have with the retailer introducing errors and that's Kobo. I've gotten eight books from them so far (out of a few hundred) where they basically look like text files. The cover and all italics and other formatting stripped out (the CSS is basically blank), yet the books were fine at every retailer where I tried a sample and when the publisher sent the original files to Kobo again the books were fine.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Speaking as someone who just went through this, publishers have two real options (I'm ignoring PDF/doc silliness): they can submit ePUB to Amazon or they can submit mobi to Amazon. And the mobi... comes from a conversion.

That's a good point, which I hadn't considered.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

And it's my understanding that Amazon STILL converts the mobi in a mobi-to-mobi process, DRM or not.

That I didn't know. I'd assumed they didn't, because I couldn't see any reason for them to do so.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

It's not the publisher's fault if Amazon has implemented a proprietary format and refused to release tools for developing within that format directly. Yes, the publisher should proof the results, BUT at the end of the day, there's not a lot the publisher can do to force Amazon to make mobi easier to work in. I do think that the Big 6 can and should hire a whole division for this issue, but if we're talking an indie author, it's another thing entirely.

To clarify, when I've complained about publishers in this thread, I've been thinking of the big 6. As you said in a later post, Amazon don't make it especially easy to proof the results, since you have to buy a copy of your book. I've done that with my books, and I'd imagine every indie could afford to do the same. The big 6 can certainly afford to do so.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Here is what I don't get...

The author sends in an electronic document (usually Word) of the book. Since the publisher has an electronic version of the book, why is it we get errors that were not in the original submitted text or in the printed version?

According to this Huffington Post article, it's because a lot of editing and proof-reading is done in the page layout files, which aren't used for the e-books.

In many cases, this means that the e-book is created from the author's original Word files because it's the easiest (currently) to format. And because this document doesn't reflect the editorial and proofing changes that the book underwent during the typesetter's page layout process, the author's Word file that winds up as an e-book is often full of errors.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by avantman42

That I didn't know. I'd assumed they didn't, because I couldn't see any reason for them to do so.

I think they do to check for automated errors. I saw that...somewhere when I was uploading my book last week.

I think B&N does an ePUB-to-ePUB conversion, too, because my ePUB contains the cover image as an embedded image at the front because I hate it when books don't come with the cover. When I bought it off B&N, they'd stripped the cover image out of the book, I'm guessing for size reasons. *sigh* In contrast, it's still in the Amazon version I uploaded to Amazon.

That's particularly frustrating, because I buy a lot of books from B&N and I'd always thought that the Big 6 were just lazy and not giving me my covers.

So I'm planning to put a notice on my site saying that if anyone wants the "real" version of my books, shoot me an email and I'll send it to them -- no reason they should be punished because B&N and Amazon and Smashwords want to churn-and-burn.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I think they do to check for automated errors. I saw that...somewhere when I was uploading my book last week.

Ah, I guess that makes some kind of sense.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

So I'm planning to put a notice on my site saying that if anyone wants the "real" version of my books, shoot me an email and I'll send it to them -- no reason they should be punished because B&N and Amazon and Smashwords want to churn-and-burn.

Do you sell your books from your website? I seem to recall you saying so a while ago, but can't find it now. If so, you may want to point out that anyone buying direct gets a better quality file than buying from Amazon/B&N/Smashwords.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by avantman42

Do you sell your books from your website? I seem to recall you saying so a while ago, but can't find it now. If so, you may want to point out that anyone buying direct gets a better quality file than buying from Amazon/B&N/Smashwords.

I haven't figured out how to put in a Paypal store yet. I do have a donate button, but having said that, several of my readers are from countries and situations that don't support Paypal, so there's that.

(If anyone sells through their site with something other than Paypal, I'd be interested to hear alternatives.)