Do you pirate books and why?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HarryT

For people in the European Union, the specific ruling is the various EU E-Commerce VAT directives:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...e/index_en.htm

Any advice on where to start looking? There's nothing that stands out as "this is where the rules about locations of online purchases are," and that's an awful lot of legal documentation to wade through.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

So these costs play SOME part of the equation in all countries. To say that it's free delivery to the reader...well. I'm guessing that is likely why they won't define all the various surcharges.

I've followed the bit about the Touch, yes (and just saw that the Touch Wi-Fi is available internationally now, while the 3G version isn't yet) - I assume that the Touch browser, while still clunky, is more comfortable to use than the Keyboard browser, so it would probably tempt people to use it a lot more than the K3 browser.

I do still wonder about the surcharge having anything to do with a specific country's 3G costs, because when I bought my Wi-Fi only K3 (by which point I'd already bought Kindle books for K4PC, all with surcharge), the Amazon 3G coverage map was quite clear about Estonia not having 3G Whispernet access at all. Not for browsing, not for buying books. It was part of the reason why I got the Wi-Fi only model. (This has changed since, I gather.)

So to me, well... I can't help but feel that by now it's "let's charge this $2 extra from the customers in the less important countries, to cover the costs for customers in more important countries". (I may be wrong. I hope I am. But since the surcharge was there before there was 3G coverage...)

Anyway, this is all getting somewhat off-topic! But I suppose that one could point at the Amazon surcharge, which makes books considerably more expensive (including for readers in countries with considerably lower income levels), it's - not an excuse - but one extra factor that drives readers to pirate the occasional book instead of buying everything they'd like to read.

Regarding geo-restrictions: currently, US Amazon's restrictions seem to be relatively simple to get around (I've just changed my location under country settings to a US address and made sure I always have enough funds on the gift card balance - I don't have a US credit card or any simple way to get one). This might change at any point, though, and I gather other shops, which do IP checking, can be more difficult to get around.

Messing around with a VPN, trying to obtain a foreign credit card etc... it's easy for some people, but not to others. One doesn't have to be technically inclined to be able to pirate a book while not have the technical know-how to bypass the geo-restrictions in his/her bookshop of choice. I tried the VPN route once but failed and gave up. I might make a second effort if I had to, but if I keep failing, well...

Honestly, by this point in time, I have enough books lined up in my to-read list (the overwhelming majority of them bought more or less legally, depending on how legal one considers bypassing geo-restrictions) that I'd probably not bother with either that or pirating - I'd just read something else. But I can easily see how bypassing geo-restrictions isn't something that everyone could manage, especially compared to the ease of pirating (and there is more risk of getting caught for breaking geo-restrictions, plus the risk of losing access to your account and your bought books).

[Katsunami]

ProfCrash: you are wrong. The law is *not* the problem. Some books are not available in the Netherlands, while other books, of the same author and publisher, are. Also, some books are introduced here only a year or more after they are released in the US and the UK. Same with some computer games. There is no law (not to my knowledge at least) that permits the release of only some books/games by an author/publisher while prohibiting others, nor is there a law to prevent a simultaneous release.

Edit: and for me, this is what causes piracy. Why should I be waiting a year or more (maybe forever) for my book or game, with no means of buying the goods? Or if I succeed in buying them, running the risk of being unable to use them because of geo restrictions and / or drm?

[ProfCrash]

If an e-book is available in the US and not available in the Netherlands that is because the US Publisher has chosen to make it available and the Netherlands Publisher has chosen not to. So yes, there is a problem because the publisher in the Netherlands has decided not to sell the e-book. That is not the problem with geo restrictions.

The reason you cannot buy the US or UK version of the e-book is because of a law in the US that treats electronic media different then physical media. This is the problem of geo restrictions. The EU and the US (I imagine other areas of the world as well) have laws on the books that prevent the sale of electronic media across borders.

You can buy the paper book through Amazon US without a problem, at least the folks in Australia, New Zealand, and most European countries can. I am assuming that this holds for the Netherlands but I have never seen someone post about buying paper books from the Netherlands so I cannot say for sure. But many people in many countries have bought paper books from Amazon US without any hassle. They don't need a US address or a gift card or a US credit card. They just buy the book and Amazon US mails it to them. They can buy the book because Amazon US (and other companies in the US) are allowed to treat their store in the US as the point of sale. So they are selling a book in the US and are good to go.

The problem is that you cannot buy the e-book for that paper book from Amazon US because of the way the law in the US is written and how it treats electronic media. The American law says that your computer in Netherlands is the point of sale so that a US store cannot sell you something that is not available in the Netherlands. In this case, the e-book. So there is a legitimate copy of the e-book that is available somewhere in the globe, in this case the US, and you are geo restricted from buying it because of the American Law. From what Harry and others have posted, this is true for the EU as well. This is why I cannot buy e-books from Amazon UK or the other international stores.

Now, the Publisher in Netherlands could get off their butt and make the book available. If it is not then you can look at other sites around the globe and find where it is available and try and circumvent the geo restrictions. (For Amazon it require a US address and a gift card with money on it. Some folks use a free VPN blocker but that does not seem to be necessary for Amazon.) This gets the Author some money and shows the Publisher that there is an interest in said Author increasing the likelihood that said Author gets another contract because you paid for the book.

Or you can pirate it and punish the Author for chosing a stupid Publisher in the Netherlands that is not making all of their work available as e-books.

[Villordsutch]

If I did it would be if I owned the book on the shelf already.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

The American law says that your computer in Netherlands is the point of sale so that a US store cannot sell you something that is not available in the Netherlands.

Which US law? I really do want to see the phrasing on that one.

Also, it's not the case that a US store can't sell you something not available in the Netherlands--or they couldn't sell you the physical book. However, if the publisher has licensed the Netherlands sales to someone else, then the US publisher can't sell you books in the Netherlands. Retail stores *are* allowed to distribute to places outside their nation... except that they won't do it for digital files, presumably because they fear publishers cutting off the supply.

At least, in the last several years of discussions about geo restrictions, I've yet to see the law that says "digital purchases are legally presumed to take place at the point of sale, or rather, the point of bank office of the purchaser's credit card, or perhaps at the address of the server hosting the IP address," all of which have been used to claim they are the "location" of the buyer.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

If an e-book is available in the US and not available in the Netherlands that is because the US Publisher has chosen to make it available and the Netherlands Publisher has chosen not to.

I'd assume that more likely than not there is no "Netherlands Publisher" for that book and never will be, because outside English-speaking countries, the market for English language books (print or ebooks) is not big enough for any local publisher to buy the rights to distribute the English versions. (There may or may not be a publisher interested in translation rights, but that's irrelevant here.)

It's far more likely that the US (or UK) publisher has either not wanted to buy international rights (for distribution outside the major English-language markets, as the major English-language markets are indeed more likely to have separate publishers for the same book) or the author has wanted too much money for them or it never occurred to anyone.

Or, which is also likely and does happen, the US / UK publisher has the international rights but just can't be bothered to deal with the distribution, probably figuring it's more hassle than the handful of potential buyers scattered here or there around the globe would be worth. (I am quite sure this is the case because I've written to authors whose ebooks are available in the US but not internationally, and at least in one case, the author and her agent both emailed me back and said that as far as they know, their US publisher has the rights, so there shouldn't be any issues, and promised to prod the publisher. That was a year ago and ebooks for me haven't happened yet.)

[Stormchild]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

The reason you cannot buy the US or UK version of the e-book is because of a law in the US that treats electronic media different then physical media. This is the problem of geo restrictions. The EU and the US (I imagine other areas of the world as well) have laws on the books that prevent the sale of electronic media across borders.

So how do you explain Smashwords and other similar sites?

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

<snip>

Now, the Publisher in Netherlands could get off their butt and make the book available.

At first I thought that you meant that there were laws in place to prevent authors or publishers to publish certain books in countries such as the Netherlands. There aren't any. (Except in very rare circumstances; publishing a book that, for example, denies the Holocaust, is not allowed as far as I know.)

Many books that I read are from the big 6 publishing houses, such as HarperCollins, Random House and Penguin; many others are for example from Ballantine and Del Rey. They're not the only ones though, but they're the ones I read the most of.

I don't understand why some books are not available in the Netherlands while others, sometimes even in the same series, are. It may sound strange, but it's indeed the case: sometimes a series is only partly available in the Netherlands, while the entire series is available in the UK. Same author, same publisher. I just can't understand that.

I do not really count Dutch publishers such as Spectrum, because they either publish native Dutch books, or translated books; in that case it's mostly only the bestsellers, and they sometimes even quit publishing in the middle of a series, if it does not sell well enough in the Netherlands. I do not read native Dutch books (there is no native Dutch Fantasy to speak of, for example), and I don't read translated books if I can read the original language. If I can't read the original language (such as Japanese, in case of the book Miyamoto Musashi), I read the English translation.

With regard to laws about exporting digital stuff such as ebooks, there is nothing I can say because I do not know much about it.

Originally Posted by Yapyap

I'd assume that more likely than not there is no "Netherlands Publisher" for that book and never will be, because outside English-speaking countries, the market for English language books (print or ebooks) is not big enough for any local publisher to buy the rights to distribute the English versions. (There may or may not be a publisher interested in translation rights, but that's irrelevant here.)

Indeed; most of the time there is no seperate Dutch publisher. If I buy a Fantasy Novel by Terry Brooks, it's published by Del Rey in the Netherlands. Lord of the Rings versions and other Tolkien stuff is mostly published by Ballantine or HarperCollins as far as I was able to see. I also have books from Penguin, Wizards of the Coast (Forgotten Realms books) and Random House.

Translations are produced and published by "Spectrum Uitgeverij", but they do as they please: they only translate on a book-by-book basis as long as the series sells. Therefore they've been known to quit producing a series, and at a certain point, pick it up again later.

This is the main reason for me to sell all my Dutch books and restart with English versions only. If a series is poised to be a trilogy for example, I always wait until the entire series is done.

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by Stormchild

So how do you explain Smashwords and other similar sites?

From my understanding, the law doesn't prevent a publisher (or rights holder) from making the digital content available in a given country - it prevents retailers from selling the content to that country if the publisher does not do so.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by CWatkinsNash

From my understanding, the law doesn't prevent a publisher (or rights holder) from making the digital content available in a given country - it prevents retailers from selling the content to that country if the publisher does not do so.

How can it be that I didn't see such a plain and simple truth....

My brain must be foggy or something

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

There's one big reason why I don't like pretending I'm somewhere else (although I do it when it's easy enough for me to manage and as long as Amazon turns a blind eye to it) - I feel somewhat guilty over my government not getting the VAT.

I understand the feeling. In a similar vein, I always try to buy from Chapters when I am purchasing online, unless the book is not available, in which case I go to Amazon. I can usually find the book for less on Chapters, though, factoring in the free 5 dollars off any purchase over $25 (red flag deals has a coupon every month). When I'm in Europe, though, I order from Amazon.com - they are the fastest and cheapest.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Stormchild

So how do you explain Smashwords and other similar sites?

For smashwords, when I upload a book, I agree that it's okay to distribute to all countries. Same with Amazon. I agree to worldwide distribution. (I have the option to withhold those rights.) So when Amazon opened in Spain, Italy, France and Germany, bam, my books were there.

In the case of publishers, they basically buy the rights to certain countries (and then resell them to counterparts in those countries under various deals.) Some of the publishers may indded have the rights, but not do anything with them. They may deem it too expensive to pursue, sales are too low, or simply drop the ball.

I've heard many an author complain that their publisher has the rights and have done nothing with them.

Sometimes the author keeps these rights and then is unable to find a publisher in the various countries.

There are not a lot of agents who have the contacts and expertise to sell to other counties although they do partner with agents in those countries (who then get a share of the profits, so the contracts get quite complicated because an agent gets a larger share of profits generally for selling foreign rights. But often the book can be sold for more money upfront because there is usually a sales record by then or a success record already that proves it is worthwhile.)

The reverse is true of UK authors coming over this way (or any author from another country.) The UK publisher may hold the rights and not sell them or they sell them and then a publisher here sells the book. But they may not be eager to expand the distribution until there is a sales record.

In smaller companies, it is possible for the publisher to find a distributor here to get the books into stores (without selling rights through another publisher). Part of what slows things down is the negotiations and also, to some extent, the publisher may be waiting to see if a book sells well enough to bother TRYING to sell the rights. Again, I've seen many an author complain that someone or other is "sitting" on the rights doing nothing with them.

The same can happen with audio rights. If they aren't sold lock/stock/barrel to the publisher it is up to the author and/or agent to sell them separately. Some agents are better at this than others.

A small publisher, (since been bought up) called Creme de la Crime used to publish in the UK. 6 months later the books would appear here. Creme bought the rights to distribute, but it took time to get the printing and whatnot worked out along with ramping up distribution after the initial release in the UK. A case of one person doing all the work to publish several novels per year. So the delay there was more a case of how the process was baked into the system. The priority was to get the edited book out, do promo and get it off the ground. This was followed by a tandem effort to get the files to the printer/distributor here with early copies for reviewers and whatnot. That process usually ran about 6 months behind the initial release.

I think it improved some with ebooks, but right about that time Creme was bought by a larger publisher.

[Stormchild]

@BearMountainBooks

No, you miss the point of my question. If as ProfCrash insists, there is a LAW that prevents selling electronic goods across borders how can Smashwords operate. I doubt there is such a law.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Stormchild

@BearMountainBooks

No, you miss the point of my question. If as ProfCrash insists, there is a LAW that prevents selling electronic goods across borders how can Smashwords operate. I doubt there is such a law.

I can't really answer that, although I know some interesting questions were posed over at Smashwords about the taxing, withholding and so on. Smashwords, so far as I know, does not apply the VAT and other taxes like Amazon does. I know Mark has blogged about tax issues (From the point of view of the author and the buyer/reader). But frankly I didn't pay much attention because it didn't affect me.

Whether there is an actual law about selling electronic files, that does sound off, but yanno with governments being what they are, nothing would surprise me.