ZDNET: Apple sabotaging ePub? - Page 6

Katsunami · 01-26-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

So an ibook file is a valid .epub file, but not the other way around.

No. Ibook and epub are different file formats. The ibook format can possibly be called an epub file after renaming, but doesn't have to be, depending on the features used in the ibook. An epub file is never a valid ibook file.

An html-file *is* a textfile. Actually, a plain .txt file without any html tags in it *is* an valid html file (be it without any markup), after you rename it. When I said that it's not valid html, I should have said that it's not a valid html webpage. It isn't because it misses the markup that would make it a webpage.

Harmon · 01-26-2012, 04:55 PM

Unless there's a clause in the contract that says that whether or not Apple accepts the book, the creator can't sell it anywhere else in any form, I don't see what the hubbub is all about.

All Apple has done is offer writers a free software package to write the books on, in exchange for a promise not to sell the formatted output in a competitor's store.

Short of outright selling the software, what else could they have done and still be in the business of making money?

I'm a bit more sympathetic to the complaints about Apple not really using the standard flavor of epub inside their DRM. I wonder if that has anything to do with the apparent inability of the hackers to crack the DRM?

As for Apple's moving into etextbooks, I think it's going to cost the schools more than they think. Unless Apple comes up with an inexpensive low end dedicated unbreakable EBR, I'd stay away from buying into the Apple iBook ecology.

Sil_liS · 01-27-2012, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, it's probably not a valid ePub file; it's just a file that an ePub viewer will do something vaguely sensible with. That certainly doesn't mean that it's a valid ePub.

Doesn't it mean that it has the same encoding?

HarryT · 01-27-2012, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Doesn't it mean that it has the same encoding?

It means that it's a ZIP archive containing HTML files, which is also what ePub is, but whereas one can say that every ePub file is a ZIP archive with HTML in it, the converse isn't true: not every ZIP with HTML is an ePub. In this case, there'll be content other than HTML (the multimedia content) that an ePub viewer won't have a clue what to do with.

Sil_liS · 01-27-2012, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmon

Unless there's a clause in the contract that says that whether or not Apple accepts the book, the creator can't sell it anywhere else in any form, I don't see what the hubbub is all about.

If it would be about just regular books, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but it's supposed to be directed at the education system. You don't have the school buy iPads for every student and then say that if the textbook gets rejected the author can still sell it in another form.

Sil_liS · 01-27-2012, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

It means that it's a ZIP archive containing HTML files, which is also what ePub is, but whereas one can say that every ePub file is a ZIP archive with HTML in it, the converse isn't true: not every ZIP with HTML is an ePub. In this case, there'll be content other than HTML (the multimedia content) that an ePub viewer won't have a clue what to do with.

But it's not like any epub viewer can open all epubs, and this doesn't mean that some epubs aren't epubs. So your argument doesn't show that ibooks aren't epubs.

HarryT · 01-27-2012, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

But it's not like any epub viewer can open all epubs, and this doesn't mean that some epubs aren't epubs. So your argument doesn't show that ibooks aren't epubs.

I'm afraid you've completely lost me there: "this doesn't mean that some epubs aren't epubs"? I don't know what that means.

MrPLD · 01-27-2012, 06:12 AM

Did I miss something major? My understanding was that the "epubs" that Apple accepts simply must conform to a stricter level of compliance above and beyond ePub but is still a valid ePub.

??

Sil_liS · 01-27-2012, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsunami

No. Ibook and epub are different file formats. The ibook format can possibly be called an epub file after renaming, but doesn't have to be, depending on the features used in the ibook. An epub file is never a valid ibook file.

Has anyone tried the opposite: rename an epub as ibook and see if it is opened by the ibook reader?

HarryT · 01-27-2012, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Has anyone tried the opposite: rename an epub as ibook and see if it is opened by the ibook reader?

I'm sure it would be. The iBooks app does, after all, read ePubs.

Sil_liS · 01-27-2012, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm afraid you've completely lost me there: "this doesn't mean that some epubs aren't epubs"? I don't know what that means.

You said (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

In this case, there'll be content other than HTML (the multimedia content) that an ePub viewer won't have a clue what to do with.

Your logic seems to be: if there is some part of the file that can't be viewed by an ePub viewer, then the file is not epub. Since not all epubs can be viewed by all ePub viewers, then by your logic, they are not epubs.

HarryT · 01-27-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

You said (emphasis mine):

Your logic seems to be: if there is some part of the file that can't be viewed by an ePub viewer, then the file is not epub. Since not all epubs can be viewed by all ePub viewers, then by your logic, they are not epubs.

An ePub is a file which conforms to the ePub file format specification - there are various validation tools available which will check an ePub for conformance to the standard.

A file that contains "extra" content may well be displayed (with greater or lesser success) by an ePub viewer, but it can't correctly be described as an ePub file - at least, not one than conforms to the ePub specification. If you have a looser definition that an ePub file is a file that an ePub viewer will display, then it may certainly fit your definition, but you'll struggle to find anyone who will accept that definition as valid.

Sil_liS · 01-27-2012, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sure it would be. The iBooks app does, after all, read ePubs.

MS Word reads .txt files, but if you take a .doc file and change the extension to .txt, you won't see anything in Word. Because they are not the same format.

murraypaul · 01-27-2012, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

But it's not like any epub viewer can open all epubs, and this doesn't mean that some epubs aren't epubs. So your argument doesn't show that ibooks aren't epubs.

You argument appears to be:
All ePub files can be opened by a Nook
Some iBook files can be opened by a Nook
Therefore iBooks files are ePub files.

Alternatively:
All cats have four legs
My dog has four legs
Therefore my dog is a cat

Sil_liS · 01-27-2012, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

An ePub is a file which conforms to the ePub file format specification - there are various validation tools available which will check an ePub for conformance to the standard.

A file that contains "extra" content may well be displayed (with greater or lesser success) by an ePub viewer, but it can't correctly be described as an ePub file - at least, not one than conforms to the ePub specification. If you have a looser definition that an ePub file is a file that an ePub viewer will display, then it may certainly fit your definition, but you'll struggle to find anyone who will accept that definition as valid.

Do you consider epub2 to be an epub format?

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01-26-2012, 04:55 PM	#77
Harmon King of the Bongo Drums Posts: 1,630 Karma: 5927225 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Excelsior! (Strange...)	Unless there's a clause in the contract that says that whether or not Apple accepts the book, the creator can't sell it anywhere else in any form, I don't see what the hubbub is all about. All Apple has done is offer writers a free software package to write the books on, in exchange for a promise not to sell the formatted output in a competitor's store. Short of outright selling the software, what else could they have done and still be in the business of making money? I'm a bit more sympathetic to the complaints about Apple not really using the standard flavor of epub inside their DRM. I wonder if that has anything to do with the apparent inability of the hackers to crack the DRM? As for Apple's moving into etextbooks, I think it's going to cost the schools more than they think. Unless Apple comes up with an inexpensive low end dedicated unbreakable EBR, I'd stay away from buying into the Apple iBook ecology.

01-27-2012, 06:12 AM	#83
MrPLD Author's pet-geek Posts: 933 Karma: 1040670 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: North Queensland, Australia Device: Kindle 3 Wifi, Onyx Boox M96	Did I miss something major? My understanding was that the "epubs" that Apple accepts simply must conform to a stricter level of compliance above and beyond ePub but is still a valid ePub. ??