Waterstones and ebook prices - Page 6

DuckieTigger · 01-15-2012, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adele Ward

Ebooks are in their infancy and I don't believe Amazon can keep this position of dominance. We need to be able to sell across more websites, and bookshops actually need to be able to offer online selling of ebooks if they are to survive. So we're all discussing this.

Now there is a thought. You need a lot of bookshops that sells online, and a lot of people visit. What about libraries?

Most libraries offer their service for free for residents (at least here in the us). There is a lot of people on MR that say they use the library a lot to borrow ebooks. That should be representative for a lot more people than just the ones that frequent MR. The Library should have a deal with publishers that they are allowed to lend the ebooks, but also sell them at a certain publisher set price. If someone does not want to wait for the waitinglist, or simply chooses to buy the book anyway after already having borrowed it before and deciding that it would be nice to have for reading again later. The Library will already have the mechanism set up that is necessary to sell ebooks - accepting payment would not be hard to add.

Now I am not sure if a public library has to operate as non-profit, but the money they make on sales could easily be blown by buying more pbooks for the library or replacing old books with newer editions ....

Edit: Of course the sale should be limited to residents that are allowed to borrow in the first place.

Adele Ward · 01-15-2012, 06:35 PM

Thanks PDurrant. Your information hadn't completely sunk in. It isn't to do with the price we charge, so it must be to do with the way the books are delivered. I was planning to run a competition to give away a Kindle (I run a number of competitions with different prizes). This was partly because it seemed like a good prize for our international following. But it seems more complicated than that as it's quite hard to buy a Kindle to gift to other countries, and people in Malaysia have told me they can't get Kindle books at all.

Adele Ward · 01-15-2012, 06:38 PM

Libraries do offer ebooks here - I hold events in Swiss Cottage Library in London to support them and people from all over the UK can borrow ebooks from them. However, the Government here is closing libraries and cutting their budget, so they can't do anything that means new expense. They are looking for ways to make money as they need to be more self funding now. Many are being closed, and others are managing to stay open with volunteers stepping in to run them and the librarians losing their jobs. It's a disgrace and there's a big campaign to try to stop it. You can see the campaign run by the Bookseller on Facebook or on their website. I am talking to them about stocking our ebooks.

shanghaichica · 01-19-2012, 05:20 AM

They are one of the worst ebook retailers in the UK, they are overpriced even when compared to other ePub retailers I.e wh smiths, the book depository, books on board. When I used my Sony reader I never bought a single book from them.

HarryT · 01-19-2012, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shanghaichica

They are one of the worst ebook retailers in the UK, they are overpriced even when compared to other ePub retailers I.e wh smiths, the book depository, books on board. When I used my Sony reader I never bought a single book from them.

My experience differs. Waterstones are the place I buy ePub books from on the occasions (which happen from time to time) that Amazon doesn't sell it, and I find their prices to be competitive with everyone else's.

elcreative · 01-19-2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shanghaichica

They are one of the worst ebook retailers in the UK, they are overpriced even when compared to other ePub retailers I.e wh smiths, the book depository, books on board. When I used my Sony reader I never bought a single book from them.

Have to agree with HarryT and strongly disagree with you... always found them generally competitive, odd books higher on occasion but definitely not a general thing and every retailer has stuff higher priced than another one... maybe it's your specific interests but that's your view and experience not ours...

rwillmer · 01-19-2012, 10:53 AM

I don’t understand Waterstones ebook pricing strategy, I really don’t.

This week, they put up the prices on quite a few bestsellers to £15.85.

Does Waterstones really think anyone is going to pay them nearly £16 for the ebook version of Lee Child’s “The Affair”, when you can get the hardback from Waterstones itself for £9.49, or the same ebook for £8.49 from Apple, Google or Kobo; or the Kindle version for £6.79?

It’s the same story but even worse with Gary Neville’s autobiography, Red – £15.86 from Waterstones, against £4.99 from Amazon, Apple, Google and Kobo.

What extra quality can they possibly be adding to justify charging 3 times as much?

Ebook prices change very frequently so these examples may all have changed by the time you read this (although they've been the same since 16th Jan 2012), but the current prices can be found at :

http://luzme.com/author/Lee+Child/book/The+Affair

http://luzme.com/author/Gary%20Nevil...0Autobiography

I would *love* to know what they think their strategy is....
Rachel

HarryT · 01-19-2012, 10:54 AM

Is it Waterstones who have increased the price, Rachel, or is it the publisher? If these are agency publishers, Waterstones has no say in the matter.

rwillmer · 01-19-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Is it Waterstones who have increased the price, Rachel, or is it the publisher? If these are agency publishers, Waterstones has no say in the matter.

I'm guessing that they aren't agency prices on these books, because all the other vendors would have to sell at the same price, wouldn't they?

Also, the Amazon page doesn't have the usual "This price was set by the publisher" which I usually see when its an agency price.

Rachel

HarryT · 01-19-2012, 11:03 AM

In that case, I agree that this is a curious decision. It may simply be human error - it's certainly not unknown for bookstores to prices things incorrectly.

DuckieTigger · 01-19-2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

In that case, I agree that this is a curious decision. It may simply be human error - it's certainly not unknown for bookstores to prices things incorrectly.

Behavior like this is most likely human error. But if it is on purpose or not remains to be seen ...

ProfCrash · 01-19-2012, 12:44 PM

I would be very surprised is someone surpasses Amazon as the dominant player in the e-book arena. Amazon is able to sell the Kindle in places where the other e-reader companies cannot. Kindle users are used to getting their e-books from Amazon. Let's face it, most people out there know little to nothing about DRM and removing DRM and converting e-books. They buy from the store that makes it easiest for them to get a book and put it on their device.

For Kindle users, that will be Amazon. For BN users (not an issue in Australia, I know) that will be BN. For Kobo users that will be Kobo.

Additionally, Amazon's massive distribution system for all manner of goods places it in a strategically sound spot for negotiating prices. The Publishers were so scared of Amazon that they came up with Agency Pricing at Apples request. If anything, all this did was strengthen Amazon's place in the market because Amazon went from losing money on e-books to making money on e-books.

In order to weaken Amazon's position, you have to find a major book seller that will sell books in both EPub and Mobi. More likely, in non-DRMed EPub and Mobi so that the books can easily be transfered to Kindles, Sonys, Nooks, Kobos, and other devices. The Major Publishers are not going to agree to this any time in the near future.

Why will the books have to lack DRM? Because most people are clueless about removing DRM and they will not buy a book that they cannot put on their device. The only site that sells Kindle specific DRM is Amazon. So Kindle users buy from Amazon. If you could convince BN and Publishers to sell Mobi Books without DRM you might see some segment of e-book buyers move to buy their Kindle books from BN. Pick another store that works for you if you must. But that is not going to happen because BN wants to lock its users into using the Nook so insists on its own special DRM and Publishers are not going to allow BN to sell books without DRM.

Unless someone can develop an e-reader and a bookstore that can rival Amazon and its reach, and so far no one has, then Amazon will remain the dominant player. If anything, that role is growing.

DuckieTigger · 01-19-2012, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Why will the books have to lack DRM? Because most people are clueless about removing DRM and they will not buy a book that they cannot put on their device

DRM as we know it does not really work now does it? Since it is computer files, the DRM'ed books can be easily copied. That in itself would already violate copyright, does it not? If there is only supposed to be ONE copy of the book then lets make it not copyable. How? Simple, a physical device e.g. a smartcard with strong enough encryption as to make a brute force attack on it not feasable. Create some kind of cloud storage, and you put a book in it, you give a second physical smartcard "the lending one" to a friend, and he can plug that into his device, d/l the book, and read it as long as he has the card. While that book is in the borrow state, it is removed for you to use until you get your borrowed smartcard back. That would equally work well for music.

CyGuy · 01-19-2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

DRM as we know it does not really work now does it? Since it is computer files, the DRM'ed books can be easily copied. That in itself would already violate copyright, does it not? If there is only supposed to be ONE copy of the book then lets make it not copyable. How? Simple, a physical device e.g. a smartcard with strong enough encryption as to make a brute force attack on it not feasable. Create some kind of cloud storage, and you put a book in it, you give a second physical smartcard "the lending one" to a friend, and he can plug that into his device, d/l the book, and read it as long as he has the card. While that book is in the borrow state, it is removed for you to use until you get your borrowed smartcard back. That would equally work well for music.

It sounds like you are describing something very similar to Ultraviolet. Read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraViolet_(system)

ProfCrash · 01-19-2012, 01:43 PM

It doesn't matter if the DRM works or not. What matters is that books sold with DRM from some place other then the Kindle Store will not work on a Kindle. Same for IBooks and for BN.

In the context of having to deal with Amazon because it is the dominant player in the market this matters because a non-affiliated book store would have to be able to sell books from the major Publishers without DRM in order for people to be able to read them on their Kindles. And that is not going to happen because the Major Publishers will not allow their books to be sold without DRM.

01-19-2012, 10:53 AM	#82
rwillmer luzme.com Posts: 64 Karma: 8701 Join Date: Mar 2009 Device: Kindle Paperwhite, Kobo Glo, iPhone, iPad	What's the price of an ebook? £15 at Waterstones!! I don’t understand Waterstones ebook pricing strategy, I really don’t. This week, they put up the prices on quite a few bestsellers to £15.85. Does Waterstones really think anyone is going to pay them nearly £16 for the ebook version of Lee Child’s “The Affair”, when you can get the hardback from Waterstones itself for £9.49, or the same ebook for £8.49 from Apple, Google or Kobo; or the Kindle version for £6.79? It’s the same story but even worse with Gary Neville’s autobiography, Red – £15.86 from Waterstones, against £4.99 from Amazon, Apple, Google and Kobo. What extra quality can they possibly be adding to justify charging 3 times as much? Ebook prices change very frequently so these examples may all have changed by the time you read this (although they've been the same since 16th Jan 2012), but the current prices can be found at : http://luzme.com/author/Lee+Child/book/The+Affair http://luzme.com/author/Gary%20Nevil...0Autobiography I would love to know what they think their strategy is.... Rachel

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01-15-2012, 06:35 PM	#77
Adele Ward Connoisseur Posts: 54 Karma: 490324 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: London Device: Kindle	Thanks PDurrant. Your information hadn't completely sunk in. It isn't to do with the price we charge, so it must be to do with the way the books are delivered. I was planning to run a competition to give away a Kindle (I run a number of competitions with different prizes). This was partly because it seemed like a good prize for our international following. But it seems more complicated than that as it's quite hard to buy a Kindle to gift to other countries, and people in Malaysia have told me they can't get Kindle books at all.

01-15-2012, 06:38 PM	#78
Adele Ward Connoisseur Posts: 54 Karma: 490324 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: London Device: Kindle	Libraries do offer ebooks here - I hold events in Swiss Cottage Library in London to support them and people from all over the UK can borrow ebooks from them. However, the Government here is closing libraries and cutting their budget, so they can't do anything that means new expense. They are looking for ways to make money as they need to be more self funding now. Many are being closed, and others are managing to stay open with volunteers stepping in to run them and the librarians losing their jobs. It's a disgrace and there's a big campaign to try to stop it. You can see the campaign run by the Bookseller on Facebook or on their website. I am talking to them about stocking our ebooks.

01-19-2012, 05:20 AM	#79
shanghaichica Guru Posts: 991 Karma: 5782970 Join Date: Jul 2010 Device: Scribe,Kindle Oasis 3, iPad Pro 11,15 Pro Max,iPad mini 7,colorsoft	They are one of the worst ebook retailers in the UK, they are overpriced even when compared to other ePub retailers I.e wh smiths, the book depository, books on board. When I used my Sony reader I never bought a single book from them.

01-19-2012, 10:54 AM	#83
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Is it Waterstones who have increased the price, Rachel, or is it the publisher? If these are agency publishers, Waterstones has no say in the matter.

01-19-2012, 11:03 AM	#85
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	In that case, I agree that this is a curious decision. It may simply be human error - it's certainly not unknown for bookstores to prices things incorrectly.

01-19-2012, 12:44 PM	#87
ProfCrash Tea Enthusiast Posts: 8,554 Karma: 75384937 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Somewhere in the USA Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2	I would be very surprised is someone surpasses Amazon as the dominant player in the e-book arena. Amazon is able to sell the Kindle in places where the other e-reader companies cannot. Kindle users are used to getting their e-books from Amazon. Let's face it, most people out there know little to nothing about DRM and removing DRM and converting e-books. They buy from the store that makes it easiest for them to get a book and put it on their device. For Kindle users, that will be Amazon. For BN users (not an issue in Australia, I know) that will be BN. For Kobo users that will be Kobo. Additionally, Amazon's massive distribution system for all manner of goods places it in a strategically sound spot for negotiating prices. The Publishers were so scared of Amazon that they came up with Agency Pricing at Apples request. If anything, all this did was strengthen Amazon's place in the market because Amazon went from losing money on e-books to making money on e-books. In order to weaken Amazon's position, you have to find a major book seller that will sell books in both EPub and Mobi. More likely, in non-DRMed EPub and Mobi so that the books can easily be transfered to Kindles, Sonys, Nooks, Kobos, and other devices. The Major Publishers are not going to agree to this any time in the near future. Why will the books have to lack DRM? Because most people are clueless about removing DRM and they will not buy a book that they cannot put on their device. The only site that sells Kindle specific DRM is Amazon. So Kindle users buy from Amazon. If you could convince BN and Publishers to sell Mobi Books without DRM you might see some segment of e-book buyers move to buy their Kindle books from BN. Pick another store that works for you if you must. But that is not going to happen because BN wants to lock its users into using the Nook so insists on its own special DRM and Publishers are not going to allow BN to sell books without DRM. Unless someone can develop an e-reader and a bookstore that can rival Amazon and its reach, and so far no one has, then Amazon will remain the dominant player. If anything, that role is growing.

01-19-2012, 01:43 PM	#90
ProfCrash Tea Enthusiast Posts: 8,554 Karma: 75384937 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Somewhere in the USA Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2	It doesn't matter if the DRM works or not. What matters is that books sold with DRM from some place other then the Kindle Store will not work on a Kindle. Same for IBooks and for BN. In the context of having to deal with Amazon because it is the dominant player in the market this matters because a non-affiliated book store would have to be able to sell books from the major Publishers without DRM in order for people to be able to read them on their Kindles. And that is not going to happen because the Major Publishers will not allow their books to be sold without DRM.