Can e-Publishing Overcome Copyright Concerns?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by tirsales

I repeat: There is actually NOTHING but the copyright law that prevents them from doing so AS IT IS.
DRM changes drek about that. It is much too easy to circumvent or rightout break DRM - and those books are available on the darknet. Only the law (not caring about DRM that law...) and a sense of "morally right" or "fair" makes e-book-readers buy your books.

So - DRM changes nothing for your security as an author and annoys your customers.

And I repeat: I was not discussing DRM here.

Originally Posted by tirsales

What can you do to make people buy your books? Make it easy for them. Make it comfortable. If it is more comfortable then the darknet - people will buy those books not "steal" them.

My books are available with free excerpts and descriptions to check out, for a low price, in 5 of the most popular formats, including on the Kindle store (plus RTF, to roll your own), and with NO DRM. I couldn't make it more comfortable, short of paying you to take my books... and I know for a fact that 2 of my books are already on the darknet.

Maybe "making it comfortable" isn't quite enough...

Originally Posted by tirsales

But really - this is a serious question: Why are you assuming that copyright will vanish?

I am not assuming copyright will vanish. I believe it must be changed to accommodate the modern world, and electronic files. But I can also see it being stripped of all power and value by a misunderstanding or foolish public/government, and undoing centuries of progress related to intellectual property.

I think there's a serious possibility that copyright could be gone within a generation, if appropriate steps are not taken to modernize it, and to bring the public in-line with it.

Many people on the MR site and elsewhere have suggested that copyright is already obsolete and useless. If it is rendered un-enforceable by open document copying and distribution via the darknet, coupled with widespread use of the darknet over paid distribution channels (like Amazon, say), with no method of securing compensation to the creator short of voluntary donations (as some MR members have openly suggested they'd prefer), copyright will effectively be dead.

Copyright law is not something that has absolutely no chance to be abolished... like any law, it can be removed by the public, or the government, at their whim. And given the current atmosphere with electronic files, and a public that largely sees them as having zero value, the future of copyright law is in serious doubt.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

We're moving slightly off-topic here, but why are these still copyrighted? Is it the layout, changes in interpretation or revision that makes each edition a new copyright.

There are literally hundreds of different early Greek manuscripts for the New Testament, all of which are slightly different (in fact there are more differences than there are words in the New Testament!). An editor (or, in the case of something like the Bible, a panel of scholars, normally) looks at all the different sources, considers their relative merits, and puts together what they consider to be the "best" version of the text. Every time someone does that, you get something slightly different. All those that have been done in the last century or so are (obviously) copyrighted.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There are literally hundreds of different early Greek manuscripts for the New Testament, all of which are slightly different (in fact there are more differences than there are words in the New Testament!). An editor (or, in the case of something like the Bible, a panel of scholars, normally) looks at all the different sources, considers their relative merits, and puts together what they consider to be the "best" version of the text. Every time someone does that, you get something slightly different. All those that have been done in the last century or so are (obviously) copyrighted.

So the money keeps rolling in...

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And I repeat: I was not discussing DRM here.

And I repeat: Why are you insisting that copyright is vanishing? Or at least your questions implie this.

My books are available with free excerpts and descriptions to check out, for a low price, in 5 of the most popular formats, including on the Kindle store (plus RTF, to roll your own), and with NO DRM. I couldn't make it more comfortable, short of paying you to take my books... and I know for a fact that 2 of my books are already on the darknet.

Maybe "making it comfortable" isn't quite enough...

You will ALWAYS find your books on the darknet - wether you publish e-books or not. That is not a criteria. Nor is wether 5% of people download your books from the darknet. You cannot do anything about that - just as you cannot do anything about people stealing books from the shop.
But that is really not the point. The question is wether you continue to sell books and wether you sell enough books. Downloads from the darknet DO NOT cost you sale. Ask Photoshop or Adobe (or the music industrie).
Do you sell those two books? Yes? Then why should the darknet links bother you? If you write good (sorry, I havent read any book from you to this point) people will continue reading your books. They load the first book from the darknet, and buy the second and third.
Relly. There is a study - I think it was the Stanford university though I am not sure - stating that the darknet actually increases sales. Because people listen into cds, then buy them. Because they can listen to a song, find it nice - and buy the next album of the artist. But they wont buy this album if it is easier and faster to be found on the darknet (and please include time to change the crappy wma-format you get from "official distributors" to something useable on your player).
Why is iTunes successful? All this music (all of it!) is available on the darknet. Because it is easier and more comfortable to use iTunes. People pay for comfort...

And comfortable means: Direct downloads to the device, from the device, at whatever position your user is. I know this is not possible ATM - but we're speaking of the future - but I guess you are on a very good way.
Or at least using a nice, fast, comfortable, easy to use and navigate, nicely structured, software to buy those books and load them to your device.

I am not assuming copyright will vanish. I believe it must be changed to accommodate the modern world, and electronic files. But I can also see it being stripped of all power and value by a misunderstanding or foolish public/government, and undoing centuries of progress related to intellectual property.

Oh please - government and laws all around the world do everything to enhance copyright up to a braind-dead point (where breaking copyright is the only way to continue using something).

I think there's a serious possibility that copyright could be gone within a generation, if appropriate steps are not taken to modernize it, and to bring the public in-line with it.

I disagree strongly with you.
Copyrights protects your creations in any format. What else do you want?

Many people on the MR site and elsewhere have suggested that copyright is already obsolete and useless.

Many? I dont know many people stating that. I know people fighting against patenting every crap, against DRM, against xyz but not many people fighting against copyright...
There are some problems with the new market - but none impossible to solve. And none others didnt solve beforehand (e.g. music, video, software, etc industrie).

If it is rendered un-enforceable by open document copying and distribution via the darknet, coupled with widespread use of the darknet over paid distribution channels (like Amazon, say), with no method of securing compensation to the creator short of voluntary donations (as some MR members have openly suggested they'd prefer), copyright will effectively be dead.

What is un-enforcable about the darknet? Aren't e.g. software companies and license holders all around the world sueing against darknet users?
(The music industrie e.g. has a home-grown problem. They charge to much money, they have jumped on the digital wagon much to late, they enforce crappy but annoying drm, etc - that annoys customers, and so they download from the darknet - and still they earn money. And dont give me that crap about "loosing sales". They lost sales, but less then other industries. And quite a bit because they are so brain-dead stupid about the new technologies, about "copyright protected CDs" - that you can't play in your player, about annoying everybody with ads "against piracy" on legally baught CDs or DVDs, etc. And quite a bit because they charge to much - the price of a single CD nearly doubled, etc - and as every business man can tell you: Higher your prices will loose you sales).

Copyright law is not something that has absolutely no chance to be abolished... like any law, it can be removed by the public, or the government, at their whim. And given the current atmosphere with electronic files, and a public that largely sees them as having zero value, the future of copyright law is in serious doubt.

Oh please.
1) Every constitution known to me protects copyrights and property - and copyright is directly related to property - and changing a constitution is not that easy
2) There are many people who have an interest in copyright - all the creatives, authors, developers, musicians, scientists, large companys (after all patents are derivates from copyright), etc - you just wont see a future without copyright. Without civil rights, freedom or human rights - quite probably. A third world war? Yeah, why not. No copyright? No way - not even when abolishing money and destroying civilisation. Not unless you loose every property
3) Did you have a look at the sales figures for e-books, e-music, e-videos, etc? Are they increasing? Are they increasing much faster then every "normal" market? Yes? So what are you suggesting there?

People have always broken laws to get a benefit - they stole, they embezzeled, they murderd, they downloaded from the darknet - and they will continue to do so. And there is NOTHING you can change. That does not mean that you should abolish the police or laws or whatever - and it certainly is nothing that excuses disposing of freedom, human rights, or similar.
It has always been a question of "What is easier? What is more comfortable?" stealing the loaf of bread or buying it (with the money you earned beforehand). It is just the same with e-books.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Even most of the Bibles which aren't translations (eg I have a couple of different Greek New Testaments) are still copyrighted text!

Since the language has changed significantly from the original those are also classes as translations and can be copyrighted. They are not copies. They are derived works I suppose.

Dale

[Greg Anos]

Patent preceded copyright historically, not the other way around. (Royal patents were issued at least 200 years before the Statue of Anne in 1714)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Since the language has changed significantly from the original those are also classes as translations and can be copyrighted. They are not copies. They are derived works I suppose.

Dale

No, I'm talking about the original 1st century Koine Greek - the language the NT was written in. That's what I read, not modern Greek. I can understand only a few words of modern Greek - the relationship between Koine Greek and modern Greek is like, say, the relationship between the language of "Beowolf" and modern English.

[zelda_pinwheel]

who could POSSIBLY be holding a valid copyright on a biblical text dating from the 1st century ???? "god" ????

[HarryT]

See my earlier post - you can hold a copyright on a text that you edit. It's not the original text that's under copyright, but your edited version of it.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

who could POSSIBLY be holding a valid copyright on a biblical text dating from the 1st century ???? "god" ????

And let's throw all the royalties up in the air, and.....

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Well, silly me... I guess there are no copyright concerns that e-publishing has to overcome. So, what were we talking about?

Were we talking about why publishers and authors are afraid to release their material electronically, because of the number of people who post their material illegally and cost them a significant part of their income, in clear violation of their copyrights?

Or were we just talking about how great the darknet is for making everyone loads of money? Pogue's article failed to mention all the income he's made from people who downloaded his books from the darknet, then went out and purchased all of his other material... but I guess the omission is understandable.

Anyway, I am going to back slowly away from this sub-thread, with my hands in clear view. Sorry for making such a fuss, Sheriff... I'll see myself out.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

...My books are available with free excerpts and descriptions to check out, for a low price, in 5 of the most popular formats, including on the Kindle store (plus RTF, to roll your own), and with NO DRM. I couldn't make it more comfortable, short of paying you to take my books...

I just wish there was a hassle-free alternative to PayPal (bad experiences) .

I know you offer alternative payment methods on your site, but they seem a bit of a faff (esp. for those of us overseas).

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Anyway, I am going to back slowly away from this sub-thread, with my hands in clear view. Sorry for making such a fuss, Sheriff... I'll see myself out.

Slowly lower your lawsuit and place it on the ground, and you and your lawyer slooowy back away from it...Sheriff

(That's a joke, Steve. Don't take it serious. See my previos post above.)

[tirsales]

Appologies in advance for the length of this posting.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Well, silly me... I guess there are no copyright concerns that e-publishing has to overcome. So, what were we talking about?

I appologize for apparently crudly misphrasing what I meant and for annoying you. It wasn't my intention.

Were we talking about why publishers and authors are afraid to release their material electronically, because of the number of people who post their material illegally and cost them a significant part of their income, in clear violation of their copyrights?
Or were we just talking about how great the darknet is for making everyone loads of money? Pogue's article failed to mention all the income he's made from people who downloaded his books from the darknet, then went out and purchased all of his other material... but I guess the omission is understandable.

As far as I understoof we were talking about possible new marketing strategies, changes to the law or to business models to
a) keep people from costing publishers significant part of their income with illegal downloads
b) keep creatives to create content
c) make everbody happy
One of the problems I try to communicate is: Not using new techniques (e.g. e-publishing) wont keep people from loading your work into the darknet. Not using something doesnt make it go away.

@Steve Jordan: I do know that you have a very nice e-publishing. Usable, cheap, nice formats, etc - Thanks for that.
You said that you know of at least two of your books in the darknet. But I firmly believe that they would be present wether you published e-books or only p-books.

So my point is: Publishers/Authors have no influence wether their work is in the darknet. They have no influence wether they participate in the e-market or not, so to speak. But they have influence wether they participate in earning money with it. Or, to put it otherwise, not publishing e-books costs you money, e-publishing makes you money.

I agree - the details of the law, the business models, the marketing strategies, etc - will have to be worked out. Have to be worked out, so that the publishers and creatives make the most money, the lowest possible number of creation is stolen via the darknet, and the customers are as satisfied as possible. But I dont think that is such a big issue. I dont see a reason for those very pessimistic approaches - see previous posting in this thread, stating the end of copyright, the depletion of authors, the end of publishing, etc.

So yes. Yes the darknet can be a problem. You can lower this problem by making it easier to buy a book then to download it. Even so people will share your books over the darknet - but you simply cannot avoid the darknet, I am sorry.
You can just try to keep as many people as possible from using the darknet. The copyright law (as it exists) can help you with this, as can service, support, etc, stuff like watermarks, ....

Yes, The darknet can actually cost money - real money.
But - and I will stand to this position: It is not as much as most people assume. It is simply not true that every single book downloaded from the darknet would otherwise have been bought. From experience with acquaintance, having a look at sales-figures, etc I would guess that far less then 5% of the people downloading something from the darknet actually would have bought it. And a number of those will buy the product. I guess - and I really believe this - it evens up, a black zero.
The problem is, that you simply cannot tell what would have happened without the darknet, so neither side has figures to prove their beliefes. But you can have a look at marketing evolutions (e.g. the amount of bought songs from legal shops, etc) - and they are rising. The amount of music available in the darknet is not lowering itself, but the number of users is. The way I see this is: People are more and more switching to legal services, paying money. The "hardcore" of the darknet-users will always stay there. A number of people will occassionally stroll in, test it, download some content. But the even so - the greater amount of people is using legal shops and is using them more and more. Occasional users switch back to legal services.

The principal idea of copyright is not changing just because the medium is changing. I believe most people respect this basic idea - as most people keep to the law. As soon as a real e-book-market is established, the format-war fought and so on - people will be really using those services.

Anyway, I am going to back slowly away from this sub-thread, with my hands in clear view. Sorry for making such a fuss, Sheriff... I'll see myself out.

Please dont.

@Ralph: Yes, but the basic idea behind copyright and patents is the same. Patents protect the creative (or technical) work behind a product, copyright protects the content itself. So abolishing the idea of copyright means abolishing patents. Or something like that crossed my mind

PS I am not using the darknet, just to avoid further misunderstandings.

[zelda_pinwheel]

please, don't apologize ; you were very polite and respectful in everything you said, and you have made some very interesting points. i hope you will feel free to continue the discussion and share your point of view. nothing you have said, or the way you have said it, could be misconstrued as offensive by any reasonable person.