Can e-Publishing Overcome Copyright Concerns?

[HarryT]

tirsales,

How many paper books that you bought 20 years ago do you still have - and read - today?

Frankly I don't give too hoots whether a book I buy now is still "readable" in 20 years time. I'm buying it to read NOW, not in 20 years.

Example: I've just bought several Agatha Christie books for US$3.82 each from Fictionwise. US$3.82 is the price of a cup of coffee - I don't regard it as a "lifetime investment". If I want to re-read "Murder on the Orient Express" in 20 years and my current Mobi book is not "readable" then, I'll go out and buy it again it. If I bought the paperback of the same book today (which would have been almost 4x the price of the eBook), the chances that I'd still have it in 20 years are close to zero. Even if I have to buy the e-Book three times, I'm still "in profit" compared to if I'd bought the paperback.

I'm afraid that I just don't understand this "if I pay for a book now I expect to be able to re-read it for the rest of my life" attitude. Paperbooks (especially cheap paperbacks) don't last a lifetime - why do you expect eBooks to?

[tirsales]

Let me put it like this: I am 24 years old.
I have bought a (large) number of books in the last ten years that I am still reading - and that I intend to read again and again.
Oh and I have read a very large number of books my parents bought a couple of years ago - e.g. the complete Agatha Christie and many more.
So ... Yes, I expect my books to be readable for quite a number of years.

[HarryT]

Fine, but you see what I'm saying? These eBooks are so cheap compared with paper books that it really doesn't matter if you can re-read them in 20 years or not. Cheap paperbacks fall to pieces after a few years. eBook DRM systems change. It's no big deal. It's not the end of the world if you have to spend US$4 again to re-read a book. What's $4? Half the price of a pizza? Why does it matter?

[zelda_pinwheel]

actually Harry, i *do* expect a book to last me a lifetime. i have many books from well over 20 years ago (including some paperbacks, which i've either bought new and kept, or bought used and "pre-aged" so to speak, and even including some Agatha Christies ; yes, i do re-read mysteries). some of them are even books which my parents originally bought, a few of them were bought before i was born. i still re-read them, and although many of them are not in perfect condition they are all still readily accessible. paper books DO and SHOULD last a lifetime, even paperbacks, if you are reasonably careful with them (all bets are off if you like to read in the bath).

if i pay for a book, it should be mine to enjoy as long as i choose, *regardless* of the price, and *regardless* of the medium. i don't consider it a legitimate excuse for DRM to render a book obsolete, obliging us to buy the same books several times, to say that it doesn't matter, since no normal person would want to re-read a book that many times anyway, or keep it so far into the future. especially since, all practicality aside, for me it's a question of *principle*.

if i think i will only want to read a book once, i get it at the library, and then give it back when i am done.

(also : my god, coffee must be really expensive in the UK. at my local cafés, 1.20€ is about the average price. if i could find e-books at that price, i would certainly not hesitate to buy them, but so far i haven't seen many...)

EDIT : in response to your last post... maybe it doesn't matter, if you have a large disposable income, but not everyone does, and i try to keep my "frivolous" or "luxury" spending to a minimum. i get REALLY annoyed if i buy something, only to discover that for arbitrary reasons i will be forced to buy THE SAME THING AGAIN in a few years time, particularly if we are talking about something completely non-mechanical, with no moving parts to break.

[HarryT]

OK, then, two cups of coffee .

Most of the books that I buy, I'll never read again. Sure, I have a few old-favourites that I read over and over again, but those are books that I'll probably buy several paper copies of during my life anyway. That's why I don't regard the purchase of a US$4 e-book as a "lifetime investment".

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Fine, but you see what I'm saying? These eBooks are so cheap compared with paper books that it really doesn't matter if you can re-read them in 20 years or not. Cheap paperbacks fall to pieces after a few years. eBook DRM systems change. It's no big deal. It's not the end of the world if you have to spend US$4 again to re-read a book. What's $4? Half the price of a pizza? Why does it matter?

There is one simple reason and that is that 20 year old books are not always available to buy new.

And I have a lot of books I bought twenty years ago that I have not read yet and that are not available to buy anymore. I also reread a lot of old books.

[zelda_pinwheel]

yes, another excellent point ; there are several books i *used* to have but don't anymore, and would like to buy again, but i can't because they are out of print and impossible to find, even used (well, i did find *one* copy of one of them available used, at the price of 40$, and the seller would not ship to europe.). what if i bought a book i wanted to keep, and drm made it inaccessible so that i could no longer read my copy OR purchase a new one because no publisher offers it ? the fact that it's "cheap" (and please remember, "cheap" like everything else is relative) doesn't excuse it being arbitrarily obsoleted.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

yes, another excellent point ; there are several books i *used* to have but don't anymore, and would like to buy again, but i can't because they are out of print and impossible to find, even used

You've just proved my point, Zelda. People say "but I can read a paper book forever", but in practice, that's not true. People move house; they throw stuff out; they lose things. Buying a paper book does NOT guarantee that you'll still have it in 20 years. eBooks are no different. If you want to re-read one of those books that you no longer have, you'll to buy another copy of it. You might have to do the same for an eBook in a few years. What's the difference? I really can't see any.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You've just proved my point, Zelda. People say "but I can read a paper book forever", but in practice, that's not true. People move house; they throw stuff out; they lose things. Buying a paper book does NOT guarantee that you'll still have it in 20 years. eBooks are no different.

that seems a rather specious argument, Harry ; obviously, it happens that you are forced to replace a book (or other thing) for some reason, but at least in my case it's the exception rather than the rule, and more importantly it's never the *intent* : i don't buy a book with the thought in my mind that sometime in the next 3 to 5 years i will make a point of leaving the book behind in a move, or lending it to an untrustworthy friend. please, don't claim that this is in any way a justification for making books which *oblige* you to re-purchase them, whether you have lost them or not.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You've just proved my point, Zelda. People say "but I can read a paper book forever", but in practice, that's not true. People move house; they throw stuff out; they lose things. Buying a paper book does NOT guarantee that you'll still have it in 20 years. eBooks are no different. If you want to re-read one of those books that you no longer have, you'll to buy another copy of it. You might have to do the same for an eBook in a few years. What's the difference? I really can't see any.

I have all the books I have bought. I have not lost any.

The difference is that you have full control of your paper books and if they are readable. That is not true for ebooks.

[tirsales]

Well Harry, it seems that we have to agree to disagree. Some people reread books and keep them (every shelf in my flat or in my cellar is stacked three books deep. And still - books pile up) and reread them over many years. I do this - okay, I throw away a number of books I dont like, but most books are kept.
Others read books only once. I agree - if I would like to read a book only once, that problem would not occur. But as it is I - and most people I know - reread books every now and then. Over years.

[akiburis]

Why not just accept that an ebook is a different thing from a paper book? A paper book is an object that you can buy and, having bought it, own outright. A commercial ebook is something else, something that you pay to use under certain limited terms and conditions. Not altogether unlike like buying a ticket to a movie, when you pay just to see the showing you paid to see. You may not like this, but that doesn't in the least affect the legitimacy of publishers' reasons for treating ebooks differently from paper books, because they are something different from paper books.

[pilotbob]

First,

To Harry...

Yes, I have most all of the Star Trek books from number 25 or so on. I bought most of them when I first got married over a few years. Now, here it is my son started reading them when he was 15, hes 17 now... so not quite 20 years.

That brings up an aside issue. I only have from 25 because a place we were renting had a basment that flooded. I had the books stored there and they were runied. The homeowners insurance paid us some sum to replace these books, even though I didn't rather getting more that I hadn't read yet. However, they don't cover any "data loss" from a stolen computer. Granted, this was 20 years ago, but the point being, the insurance company didn't think that digital assests had a monetary value... no wonder so many people think nothing of downloading music, movies, tv shows, and ebooks without paying for them.

To Zelda:

With the proliferation of "Starbucks" here the term "for the price of a cup of coffee" has changed from $1.20 or so to $8 (the average price of a medium sized latte at SB, no I hate coffee thank God.)


BOb

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by akiburis

You may not like this, but that doesn't in the least affect the legitimacy of publishers' reasons for treating ebooks differently from paper books, because they are something different from paper books.

Accepting that an e-book is something completely different and can be read only under special circumstances (e.g. the moon just right) - okay. But dont get your hopes up. I wouldnot pay much for this kind of book.
Lemme see ... my library charges me 18€ per year to rent unlimited books. I would go as far as paying 50€ - because it wouldnt be any different.
Renting a DVD costs as few as 0,50€ - while buying that same DVD costs between 9 and 30 € ... A book costs 9€ ... calculate it.

Now to get real:
There really isnt a difference between an e-book and a p-book. Really. There isnt. Just as there is no real difference between a list of MP3s and a CD.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by tirsales

Well Harry, it seems that we have to agree to disagree. Some people reread books and keep them (every shelf in my flat or in my cellar is stacked three books deep. And still - books pile up) and reread them over many years. I do this - okay, I throw away a number of books I dont like, but most books are kept.
Others read books only once. I agree - if I would like to read a book only once, that problem would not occur. But as it is I - and most people I know - reread books every now and then. Over years.

I am still re-reading pbooks (25p anybody)I bought 40 years ago, despite moves etc. Interestingly books from that long ago are wearing better than more recent ones.

Originally Posted by akiburis

Why not just accept that an ebook is a different thing from a paper book? A paper book is an object that you can buy and, having bought it, own outright. A commercial ebook is something else, something that you pay to use under certain limited terms and conditions. Not altogether unlike like buying a ticket to a movie, when you pay just to see the showing you paid to see. You may not like this, but that doesn't in the least affect the legitimacy of publishers' reasons for treating ebooks differently from paper books, because they are something different from paper books.

In that case bring the price of a new e-book to well below the price of the p-, h-books.