Sony Announcement

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by jplumey

Sheesh, you weren't kidding, you really are mad!

Can you blame him? I'm in the same boat. It's a small boat but it's getting pretty crowded in here. I'm just not going to let it get to me. I prefer to steam quietly in the corner while reading the books I can get to display well with the tools available even though I hate having to use those tools. I like my Sony for what it can do but given a free do-over I'd be looking pretty hard at the Kindle and iLiad, at least.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by NickHiatt243

I paid some serious coin for a prs-500 because it claimed it could read pdfs....well we all know that was a big lie.

There are many, many things I do not like about Sony and about how they provide content for their Readers. Yet I have to to say you are not right.
PRS 500 *CAN* read pdf files.

You simply do not understand pdf.
It is *IMPOSSIBLE* to reflow pdf document automagically.
pdf document simply *does NOT have* the required info. It has no notions about lines, paragraphs, format. All information stored in the pdf file is "put letter A on this x,y coordinate, put letter B on that x,y coordinate". And that lack of "reflowability" is a feature. This lack of possibility to manipulate pdf file is what made pdf so popular with publishers, manual authors, electronic document submitters. You can "print out" the document into the pdf -- in other words create pdf document -- and you can be 100% sure that anybody can print the exact layout on any platform, and that nobody would be able to take your work and rehash it a little bit by reflowing it, changing paragraph style of fonts and publish it as his own work.

There are basically two ways to handle pdf *FORMATED FOR PRINTING ON THE A4 OR LEGAL PAPER* on a 6" screen.
- display it with 40% zoom - in which case the letters are really small
- display small fraction of the page at the time - in which case you have to scroll around like mad.

Please, do not blame Sony for your lack of common sense. Have you tried to print a pdf document on a 120x90m large piece of paper using very low resolution (166dpi) printer before rushing to buy Reader? Have you given it any thought at all?

PRS 500 has many shortcomings(*), yet it does support pdf documents very well. You can create pdf documents formatted for 90*120 mm page and the results are great. Complicated graphics, all fonts in the world including Russian, Central European (like Czech, Polish, Slovenian, ....), even Chinese or Japanese.

If you really do care about reading your average pdf files just buy a second-hand notebook (or tablet PC) with screen at least 15" big. Period. Until there are 15" large e-ink screens available you do not have to bother check pdf support on any e-ink ebook reader.

(*) like not being able to connect to the Reader without the use of specialized SW, lack of directory support, lack of user configurable font for txt files, weak rtf support, lack of user replaceable fonts (for non-english texts) ...

[NatCh]

I certainly understand NickHiatt243's ... irritation, but I should point out that unless I missed something, there's still no mobile version of DE at all, so it's not really fair to blame Sony for that lack.

They never promised they'd update the PRS500 with the new features, I was hopeful that they would at some point do so, but my own hope is fading fast. Actually, my hope that they'll update the firmware on the PRS505 is getting pretty threadbare.

They've been awfully quiet since CES in January ....

[NickHiatt243]

Originally Posted by kacir

There are many, many things I do not like about Sony and about how they provide content for their Readers. Yet I have to to say you are not right.
PRS 500 *CAN* read pdf files.

You simply do not understand pdf.
It is *IMPOSSIBLE* to reflow pdf document automagically.
pdf document simply *does NOT have* the required info. It has no notions about lines, paragraphs, format. All information stored in the pdf file is "put letter A on this x,y coordinate, put letter B on that x,y coordinate". And that lack of "reflowability" is a feature. This lack of possibility to manipulate pdf file is what made pdf so popular with publishers, manual authors, electronic document submitters. You can "print out" the document into the pdf -- in other words create pdf document -- and you can be 100% sure that anybody can print the exact layout on any platform, and that nobody would be able to take your work and rehash it a little bit by reflowing it, changing paragraph style of fonts and publish it as his own work.

There are basically two ways to handle pdf *FORMATED FOR PRINTING ON THE A4 OR LEGAL PAPER* on a 6" screen.
- display it with 40% zoom - in which case the letters are really small
- display small fraction of the page at the time - in which case you have to scroll around like mad.

Please, do not blame Sony for your lack of common sense. Have you tried to print a pdf document on a 120x90m large piece of paper using very low resolution (166dpi) printer before rushing to buy Reader? Have you given it any thought at all?

PRS 500 has many shortcomings(*), yet it does support pdf documents very well. You can create pdf documents formatted for 90*120 mm page and the results are great. Complicated graphics, all fonts in the world including Russian, Central European (like Czech, Polish, Slovenian, ....), even Chinese or Japanese.

If you really do care about reading your average pdf files just buy a second-hand notebook (or tablet PC) with screen at least 15" big. Period. Until there are 15" large e-ink screens available you do not have to bother check pdf support on any e-ink ebook reader.

(*) like not being able to connect to the Reader without the use of specialized SW, lack of directory support, lack of user configurable font for txt files, weak rtf support, lack of user replaceable fonts (for non-english texts) ...

I bought the reader thinking I won't have to spend hours trying to convert/reconvert/rebuild or what ever you what to call it! I simply don't have time for that crap...I bought the thing expecting pdf's would reflow or they would include some kind of software to convert it to their own stupid format but they can even do that right!

I agree adobe is just as bad....they have not said a thing since spouting off in January that the reader will support DE! Throw us a fricken bone here!!!
And I'm quite sure sony could make DE work on the 500 but it would be more profitable for sony to say screw the 500 and only add DE support for the 505.

That's what irritates me about this whole DE issue...I can see the 500 users getting screwed over and either having to spend the money to upgrade or buy a different reader. Hell I could give a rats @ss about DE alls I want is to easily buy books from ebooks.com and put them on my reader is that so hard?


I hope Adobe and Sony prove me wrong but I doubt it

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by NickHiatt243

...alls I want is to easily buy books from ebooks.com and put them on my reader is that so hard?

I've bought from them a few times. I buy the MS Lit version, use Convert Lit and Calibre and have a perfectly good LRF version a minute after purchase.

[astrodad]

If you bought the Reader expecting PDF reflow then I'm sorry but you didn't do your research very well. If you had you might have waited or gotten one of the larger eInk devices that handle A4 sized PDF's a little better.

Not to be disrespectful but you have to work within the constraints of the software, hardware, and the reality of the state of these devices. Perhaps paper books would suit you better.

[astrodad]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Can you blame him? I'm in the same boat. It's a small boat but it's getting pretty crowded in here. I'm just not going to let it get to me. I prefer to steam quietly in the corner while reading the books I can get to display well with the tools available even though I hate having to use those tools. I like my Sony for what it can do but given a free do-over I'd be looking pretty hard at the Kindle and iLiad, at least.

The Kindle would do no better at formatting PDF's than the Reader does. PDF's are not text documents, they were designed for retaining formatting at specific sizes.

Even then, I'm sorry, but I just can't see myself getting so mad about such a thing. We're talking about a hobby here, aren't we? And it's not like anyone is forcing us to buy these things, early adopters that we are. I mean no disrespect, he's entitled to his opinion, I just don't see how someone can be so upset when there are so many other things wrong in this world in which to be irate.

[astra]

Originally Posted by jplumey

The Kindle would do no better at formatting PDF's than the Reader does.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

NickHiatt243
You cannot blame Sony for that. All of the current 6" readers boast PDF support and none of them can display pdf properly. Moreover, Sony is the only reader that has a software - pdflrf - that makes pdf more or less readable on the reader without loosing any formating or spending days on editing a book converted from PDF.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by NickHiatt243

I bought the reader thinking I won't have to spend hours trying to convert/reconvert/rebuild or what ever you what to call it! I simply don't have time for that crap...

Call me dense but have you tried buying books for SONY at
http://ebookstore.sony.com/

I'm sure you will not have to convert ANY of their books for your PRS-500.


So far every eInk vendor out there that owns their own ebook format has handcuffed their device to their eBooks. (e.g. Fictionwise, Kindle ) I can't fault SONY for the same, it's good business.
What you must give SONY credit is for opening their reader and their LRF format. So that if the need arose it is easy to convert to the SONY format.

[NickHiatt243]

Originally Posted by astra

You took the words right out of my mouth.

NickHiatt243
You cannot blame Sony for that. All of the current 6" readers boast PDF support and none of them can display pdf properly. Moreover, Sony is the only reader that has a software - pdflrf - that makes pdf more or less readable on the reader without loosing any formating or spending days on editing a book converted from PDF.

yes sir I have used the pdflrf its almost there but you lose the zoom feature and is barley readable so i'm back at square one.

Why didn't sony include some type of software like pdflrf to begin with.

[NickHiatt243]

Originally Posted by =X=

Call me dense but have you tried buying books for SONY at
http://ebookstore.sony.com/

I'm sure you will not have to convert ANY of their books for your PRS-500.


So far every eInk vendor out there that owns their own ebook format has handcuffed their device to their eBooks. (e.g. Fictionwise, Kindle ) I can't fault SONY for the same, it's good business.
What you must give SONY credit is for opening their reader and their LRF format. So that if the need arose it is easy to convert to the SONY format.

Thats the thing the sony bookstore section is complete crap!!

I'm using my reader for computer certifications....CCNA,CCNP, MCSE just to name a few. Try to find any of these book in the sony bookstore. Yet they are ready available on ebooks.com.

Hell I don't mind converting to RTF since its easy to convert but then I lose the images that reinforce the the text.

As for someone posting that we are early adopters.....right!!!!...the sony reader has been out since 2006 and its 2008 now and I'm suppost to be all smiles that they are just now coming out with a standard format that possibly will not work with a first gen reader.

[TheLongshot]

Originally Posted by NickHiatt243

I'm using my reader for computer certifications....CCNA,CCNP, MCSE just to name a few. Try to find any of these book in the sony bookstore. Yet they are ready available on ebooks.com.

The Sony, or most of the readers we talk about on this site, are not very good with those type of books. They are just too small for that type of content and the content wouldn't deal well with reflowable text with all the charts and sections and formatting.

Jason

[bobbarkerissatan]

Originally Posted by jplumey

The Kindle would do no better at formatting PDF's than the Reader does. PDF's are not text documents, they were designed for retaining formatting at specific sizes.

Even then, I'm sorry, but I just can't see myself getting so mad about such a thing. We're talking about a hobby here, aren't we? And it's not like anyone is forcing us to buy these things, early adopters that we are. I mean no disrespect, he's entitled to his opinion, I just don't see how someone can be so upset when there are so many other things wrong in this world in which to be irate.

Wow. Can't you just let the guy blow off steam?

I for one will not be buying any more Sony products.

Unless they provide some real technical data to show that the 500 can't handle reflow, then this is all about money.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by kacir

Please, do not blame Sony for your lack of common sense. Have you tried to print a pdf document on a 120x90m large piece of paper using very low resolution (166dpi) printer before rushing to buy Reader? Have you given it any thought at all?

Come now. No reason to be so harsh. I don't think I would call it "common sense" so much as specific knowledge. There are many rather intelligent people who don't know the particulars of the pdf format or even if they do might think that when they read the claim that a reader supports pdf that they have found a way to deal with all this in a usable fashion.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by jplumey

The Kindle would do no better at formatting PDF's than the Reader does. PDF's are not text documents, they were designed for retaining formatting at specific sizes.

Yep. That's why, even though they offer free PDF conversion, they make it explicit that it is "experimental". They don't claim they support it because they can't do it well. They've taken a lot of flack for that from people who don't understand. I can't tell you how many flames I've seen in the comments on sites like gizmodo and engadget along the lines of, "What do you mean they don't do PDF? PDF is teh most common ebook format ever. FAIL." They do PDF about as well as any 6" reader can. They're just honest about it.