Onyx Boox M92 sample has arrived. First imression - I love it!

[Beryll Snyder]

Originally Posted by Booxtor

Hi,
I just wonder how can you write and judge about Onyx (or Pocketbook) devices when you does not own one of them?
I am using my M92 long enough to say I have the best experience with this device even if I know there are still some really minor issues. I just want to give a chance to guys of this small company and I don't want to support huge corporations with their greed of gain and may be in some points better developed but closed and restricted software.

Allow me to kick in here, because I have the experience(as with other devices).
I couldn't care less if a company is big or small. They have deliver on just some of their promises.
You talk about minor issues - probably referring to the absence of bugs.
And I have to agree here.
The hardware certainly seems to be great, only time can tell.
But the software part sucks definetly.
Lets just take PDFs. There are huge improvements, but there is no let me say
ergonomical and functional workflow.
Handling of PDFs does not require just what is shown on the screen, but also integration with other applications. There is no use of taking notes, if I cannot store them in some database, work with them in a wordprocessor, or use them elsewhere. No problem in the Windows or Android world. Plenty of options. So basically it is known what is possible.
And there seems a complete disconnect to the needs oft the readers. The programmers seem to have no understanding that people are not just looking at the screen, but actually doing something with the content.
If companies, I would include PB as well, start inventing the wheel from start, this simply cannot succeed - especially if it is a small operation. Small is not always beautiful.
That the enthusiastic testers turn out to be salespeople for the only shop selling these devices leaves at least a funny feeling in some people.

[Beryll Snyder]

Originally Posted by onesome

Just a quick question: are the M90/91 and M92 displays identical? I'm asking because some saying there isn't much difference between 903/912 and M92 displays while many M90/91 owner claimed their display is superior to 903/912. Technically there should be visible difference between 8:1 and 12:1 contrast.

I don't know about the difference between M90 and M92, but in my opinion as a user there is a considerable difference between Onyx and PB ...

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by PF4Mobile

@johnnyb What version of Kindle do you use ? What screen size? you made me curious about annotating and reading PDFs on Kindle. I thought I ruled that out.

"sooner or later"a anything can can happen with any sort of device... this is why you have backup software, procedures and so on.

I use a Kindle Keyboard with 6" screen and I either convert PDFs via email or display them directly. When done reading, I can export the highlights and notes for specific books with mentioned freeware and in case I need to use them, just search for them in the original file (with proper pagination)... This fits my workflow insofar as I prefer re-reading and organizing what is important for a specific topic anyway. Might not be for everyone... Advantage over Boox: the system is stable (and I always have the Kindle clippings as a backup and don't rely on obscure files that cannot be properly extracted, how do you restore the Boox database files properly?).
But I also have a tablet for that so this is just when I'm traveling and don't want "the heavy artillery" with me (for battery reasons for example, the Kindle last really long). Or when I cannot stand looking at a display. So I use the Kindle mostly for recreational reading and "recreational research" (that is, getting new ideas)...
(You could also reflash a Kindle DX(G) with firmware 3, probably less painful than relying on a Boox.)

(as to the other comment: I did own a Boox 60 way back, up until firmware 1.5 and my comments on the platform are based on the fact that the same problems "we" had back then still persist: the Wacom tourchscreen cannot be properly calibrated, is not properly integrated with dead zones and aberrations on the edges and margins, firmwares introduce bugs (that sometimes require resetting and losing progress while any update is badly needed), highlights cannot be extracted, the interface makes it a pain to work with the files (or at least unnecessarily complicated, nothing is available in the main screen), dictionaries don't work properly etc.
This has all been there for years and NOTHING has changed, why, nobody knows, I guess that new buyers are generally already satisfied when the device works somehow to some extent. The fact that Onyx has in three years not done anything to improve usability and was always just content with introducing new devices with the same old set of bugs, flaws, drawbacks and misconceptions is telling. They probably don't use the devices themselves, never have anything tested properly, or in a very odd way, to please the heads of the company, they have no concept, not to speak of a vision. For years, they have been relying solely on end-users to do the testing without actually listening to their needs. In their opinion, devices are complete, when a randomly chosen set of features somehow works.
As regeards Amazon, I'd prefer a business driven strategy of improvement over no strategy at all any day)...

[Schmitti]

@johnnyb: I considered buying a Kindle DX, but it doesn't have enough memory and no card slot. I need 50+ GB… lots of scanned PDFs. The M92 was the logical choice, glitches or no glitches.

[PF4Mobile]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

I use a Kindle Keyboard with 6" screen and I either convert PDFs via email or display them directly. When done reading, I can export the highlights and notes for specific books with mentioned freeware and in case I need to use them, just search for them in the original file (with proper pagination)... This fits my workflow insofar as I prefer re-reading and organizing what is important for a specific topic anyway. Might not be for everyone... Advantage over Boox: the system is stable (and I always have the Kindle clippings as a backup and don't rely on obscure files that cannot be properly extracted, how do you restore the Boox database files properly?).
But I also have a tablet for that so this is just when I'm traveling and don't want "the heavy artillery" with me (for battery reasons for example, the Kindle last really long). Or when I cannot stand looking at a display. So I use the Kindle mostly for recreational reading and "recreational research" (that is, getting new ideas)...
(You could also reflash a Kindle DX(G) with firmware 3, probably less painful than relying on a Boox.)

We all have better 6" devices, better than Onyx. I thought you got the point, we are all interested in Onyx because we are looking for a decent functionality and openness to all formats we might need, that would be for a 9.7-10" eink screen. I am not familiar with Kindle but I would be happy to find out that Kindle DX(G) fits the bill and matches all the features that Onyx currently has.

• No touch screen, no pen as far as I know, am I wrong?
• Many formats are not accessible afaik

Not sure to what degree Kindle DX was hacked to add new applications there. Since you are Kindle's advocate I will let you tell us. As for Onyx I am pretty sure that once the unavoidable bugs that usually come with a new version are solved it will be OK. So far it seems that they have fixed the hardware problems and most of the software problems that were pestering M91 ...
And speaking of annotations: I just looked at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PmWnoPA1qQ

and I am sorry to say but we are now living the era of touch screens and this mode of making annotations is unproductive , lacks fluidity and it interrupts the course of your reading...
Since the colour eInk is out there on the market I expect the big guys to jump on it soon. I will probably drive to Buffalo to buy a colour eInk Nook and that will be the end of my problems. That if I don't buy the new JetBook till then. So far Onyx looks decent and it is improving. I believe that for them it is now or never because the next generation of eInk devices will have all the features across the market (9.7", touch screen, wireless, colour eInk) so they better make some money now so they can compete next year. For me it is all a matter of time, I have to buy something now, I can not afford to wait 1 year... and unless you convince me that Kindle DX is better than Onyx for PDF reading I will most probably buy Onyx crippled as you believe it is.

[ignacio ferrer]

Originally Posted by PF4Mobile

. That if I don't buy the new JetBook till then. So far Onyx looks decent and it is improving. I believe that for them it is now or never because the next generation of eInk devices will have all the features across the market (9.7", touch screen, wireless, colour eInk) so they better make some money now so they can compete next year. For me it is all a matter of time, I have to buy something now, I can not afford to wait 1 year... and unless you convince me that Kindle DX is better than Onyx for PDF reading I will most probably buy Onyx crippled as you believe it is.

Only with very low expectation levels one can be satisfied with "looks decent" and "improving". I don't know any segment of the electronics market where that could be a criterion. Improvement at a snails pace at that.
If you can't wait, why not go with a tablet. Gives you many more options than the Ereader - ok, not so good for your eyes - but in the given situation there is no solution without (considerable)compromise.
I agree with you that kindle is not an option at all.

[PF4Mobile]

Originally Posted by ignacio ferrer

Only with very low expectation levels one can be satisfied with "looks decent" and "improving". I don't know any segment of the electronics market where that could be a criterion. Improvement at a snails pace at that.
If you can't wait, why not go with a tablet. Gives you many more options than the Ereader - ok, not so good for your eyes - but in the given situation there is no solution without (considerable)compromise.
I agree with you that kindle is not an option at all.

No tablet for me! (because of the eye strain).
I actually looked at Asus eee121 (slate) that runs Win7 and it solves all my problems, I would be using PDF Xchange reader on tablet and desktop and my work flow is based on this small and fine ereader... but the eye strain will be there and this is why I am looking for e-ink!

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by PF4Mobile

Since you are Kindle's advocate I will let you tell us.

I am not. And I won't, look in the Kindle hacks section... The Kindle 3 firmware can be installed on the DX, there's even a custom rom on the web.

Originally Posted by PF4Mobile

I am sorry to say but we are now living the era of touch screens and this mode of making annotations is unproductive , lacks fluidity and it interrupts the course of your reading...

How is going to the menu to select annotation tools every time an improvement when you still want to use your pen for other things like dictionary? On the Onyx platform, you can EITHER lookup in dictionary OR highlight (selected from a menu, one click away), and then you will have to use the cursor to navigate the page. They are best evenly annoying.
Plus, what this lady in the video demonstrated is untypical use for such a small screen, you know that yourself. Read in landscape orientation, you have a bigger page, less lines to browse and moreover, you can just let the cursor follow the text, something she hasn't figured out.

Originally Posted by PF4Mobile

and unless you convince me that Kindle DX is better than Onyx for PDF reading I will most probably buy Onyx crippled as you believe it is.

You'd better have a closer look at the Onyx reader before you buy, it might turn out that you could have saved a lot of money and done a lot for the environment if you printed everything out in the first place. Try the tool briss to bring your pages into a size suitable for two-page printing even larger page formats and off you go. 100 pages is probably 5 bucks on a home laser printer, so you could read 14000 pages of your ebooks until next year...

[PF4Mobile]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

I am not. And I won't, look in the Kindle hacks section... The Kindle 3 firmware can be installed on the DX, there's even a custom rom on the web.

Then M92 wins in this respect

How is going to the menu to select annotation tools every time an improvement when you still want to use your pen for other things like dictionary? On the Onyx platform, you can EITHER lookup in dictionary OR highlight (selected from a menu, one click away), and then you will have to use the cursor to navigate the page. They are best evenly annoying.

You seem to forget that I might need to look up a word here and there while annotation is a function used a lot more often. Since it is a lot easier to highlight and scribble with Onyx it wins in this respect too. :-)

Plus, what this lady in the video demonstrated is untypical use for such a small screen, you know that yourself. Read in landscape orientation, you have a bigger page, less lines to browse and moreover, you can just let the cursor follow the text, something she hasn't figured out.

I do not need to do all these with Onyx

You'd better have a closer look at the Onyx reader before you buy, it might turn out that you could have saved a lot of money and done a lot for the environment if you printed everything out in the first place. Try the tool briss to bring your pages into a size suitable for two-page printing even larger page formats and off you go. 100 pages is probably 5 bucks on a home laser printer, so you could read 14000 pages of your ebooks until next year...

Printing is not included into my workflow. Transferring annotations to desktop is essential. Here there is room for improvement, and since they are stored in an sql database it is just a matter of time for the community to fix that.

[johnnyb]

Ok, you're all set for the Boox, congratulations, just one more thing regarding your optimism (and I really don't want to spoil it for you, as I said before, I wish a decent 10" reader had finally turned up):

Originally Posted by PF4Mobile

Transferring annotations to desktop is essential. Here there is room for improvement, and since they are stored in an sql database it is just a matter of time for the community to fix that.

Annotations have been stored in such sql database files for years on the Boox platform and no one has so far developed a piece of software to extract from these. Why would that suddenly change when so and so many people have now moved on to other systems? There has been a stronger community but it has dissolved almost completely...
But I can only hope that such a piece of software turns up eventually, we've been telling Onyx for years... Then I'd consider purchasing an M92 myself...

[kamizase]

Wait wasn't it in this very thread where jbaach showed us that annotations can now be storred in a seperate pdf file?

[PF4Mobile]

Originally Posted by kamizase

Wait wasn't it in this very thread where jbaach showed us that annotations can now be storred in a seperate pdf file?

that was scribbling
we concluded that the annotations and highlights are there in an sql db but could not find the meaning of what was stored there...

[PF4Mobile]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

Ok, you're all set for the Boox, congratulations, just one more thing regarding your optimism (and I really don't want to spoil it for you, as I said before, I wish a decent 10" reader had finally turned up):


Annotations have been stored in such sql database files for years on the Boox platform and no one has so far developed a piece of software to extract from these. Why would that suddenly change when so and so many people have now moved on to other systems? There has been a stronger community but it has dissolved almost completely...
But I can only hope that such a piece of software turns up eventually, we've been telling Onyx for years... Then I'd consider purchasing an M92 myself...

Please compare (if you can) the community that Asus eee Note has with the one that Onyx has. I assure you that Onyx's community is bigger yet the Asus device was hacked and it is quite OK now.
You know why did that happen? That was because Asus made public the sources. So back to your questions, why do I believe that...well the answer is in your very own replies: Onyx has made the sources public too... Perhaps this is the very reason why there was no solution to this issue..
Makes sense?

PS: I just read a little bit about OpenInkPot... this could be an alternative to runinx the buggy native Onyx OS.

[fekhner]

concerning the annotations and using them on a desktop, the way this has been solved for the DR's with the latest firmware was through a port of xournal, so I guess a solution would be a similar port of xournal for the boox than the one you can find here
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87593
https://bitbucket.org/mackx/xournal-dr
since the Onyx sources are public, this should be possible ....

[sammy]

Hi, does anybody knows if it is possible to use an othesr stylus?