Kindle 4 screen is THE SAME as K3.

[SchrodingersCat]

I'm 99% positive that there are "different grades" of e-ink displays.

Any engineering / manufacturing process will have variance in consistency. Quality can vary batch-to-batch or even device-to-device.

For example, when you buy resistors, you can buy them at 10%, 5%, 1%, 0.1% tolerances. They don't deliberately "make" them at these different tolerances, they just make 50 ohm resistors. Then they test them. The ones that test at 50.01 ohms go in the 0.1% box. The ones that test 55 ohms go in the 10% box. Then they charge more for the ones that are "better."

Manufactures have two choices: first, throw out all the components that aren't within ideal tolerances. That's very wasteful and expensive, but it gives you high reliability when buying, and it's what they do when making Ferraris and Tissot watches.

Kindles are not Ferraris or Tissot watches. An electronic device priced around $100 is certainly going to cut corners somewhere. Amazon cut corners by buying cheaper e-ink displays. Most of their customers will never notice, and many of those who do will not want to take the time and effort to send it back.

[Snorkledorf]

I just had my Kindle 3 replaced so I took the opportunity to take some pictures.

Photography info: These were taken under artificial lighting, with the camera on a tripod. I took one photo, then carefully swapped out the Kindle and took the next photo, matching the viewfinder as best I could, to theoretically minimize differences in lighting. I then imported and aligned the photos in Pixelmator and cut bits out if needed to best show off what differences there were.

It seems the new unit's black is noticeably darker, really visibly in the "Slide..." photo. But the "Kindle" photo also seems to show that the white is darker too. Sure doesn't look that way when placed side by side though -- it looks much lighter. A contrast effect of the sharper black? Either way, it looks much clearer.

[ThomasC]

Maybe one day we will be able to actually select the contrast levels ourself.

[shinew]

Originally Posted by Snorkledorf

I just had my Kindle 3 replaced so I took the opportunity to take some pictures.

Photography info: These were taken under artificial lighting, with the camera on a tripod. I took one photo, then carefully swapped out the Kindle and took the next photo, matching the viewfinder as best I could, to theoretically minimize differences in lighting. I then imported and aligned the photos in Pixelmator and cut bits out if needed to best show off what differences there were.

It seems the new unit's black is noticeably darker, really visibly in the "Slide..." photo. But the "Kindle" photo also seems to show that the white is darker too. Sure doesn't look that way when placed side by side though -- it looks much lighter. A contrast effect of the sharper black? Either way, it looks much clearer.

Do you have the link for the original photos?

If you want to get repeatable result, everything must be manual on the camera, including focusing, white balance, shutter speed, aperture & ISO, and use a constant light source(could be a studio light or just desk lamps), not flash. Here are couple of things to check:
1) have everything on the camera set to identical setting in manual mode & put it on the tripod, and use a shutter release cable(or timer if you don't have one) with mirror lockup. The light source need to be constant artificial light
2) put kindle against the wall, floor or something flat and mark its four corners so they remain at the same spot. it's also important to make sure that the kindle is parallel to the wall too, not leaning at an angle.
3) adjust the camera's back to be parellel to the kindle
4) depending on the lens you use, a good place to start is F11, larger than that you might have DOF problem and smaller than that you might get diffraction

With everything checked above, you might get a somewhat consistent setup if there're no human errors. For now by looking at your cropped photos, you have at least missed step 1 & 3. Your focusing is inconsistent(probably set it to autofocus), your kindle is at an angle to the camera and you might have a slight camera shake for the 2012 picture. All of those affect the perceived quality of the screen for cameras.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat

I'm 99% positive that there are "different grades" of e-ink displays.

Any engineering / manufacturing process will have variance in consistency. Quality can vary batch-to-batch or even device-to-device.

Manufactures have two choices: first, throw out all the components that aren't within ideal tolerances. That's very wasteful and expensive, but it gives you high reliability when buying, and it's what they do when making Ferraris and Tissot watches.

I agree. It's common sense and it was confirmed by someone at the e-ink producers. That's not to say Amazon uses lower grade screens.

I handled a K4 the other day and thought the background was a little darker than my 650. I couldn't say if it was less or more readable without putting the two next to each other, but it did look darker. Still very good in any case. I was impressed by it. Found the buttons little and difficult to use though, especially the nav button. Heavens know why they didn't make that button bigger.

[YukonTrooper]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Maybe one day we will be able to actually select the contrast levels ourself.

I had a PRS-T1 briefly and the contrast and brightness adjustments were useless. Completely garbled the text with aliasing. That may be specific to whatever font rendering engine Sony uses, but it was a horrible experience.

[SchrodingersCat]

Mercedes's Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Second Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Third Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Fourth Kindle: ABOUT FRICKIN' TIME!

So it took until the 4th unit before I got one that was satisfactory. I can tilt it away from the light and it appears as bright as I would expect. Also, the black is actually darker than on the grey units (although it could just appear darker because of the lighter background, but either way it really pops). The edge of the letters even appears smoother. Overall, I am finally satisfied with this unit.

So there it is, folks. It's not that the entire stock is poor quality, just 3/4 of the units. So be persistent. Each time, they were very helpful about replacing it with no problems, which is what I love about Amazon.

The poor thing even sat in my mailbox for I don't know how long, because I don't usually check the mail on the weekends but I had to clear snow off the mailbox so I figured I'd check, which means it had been there at least since yesterday. -20C (-4 F for you 'merkin folks).

I have a conspiracy theory: They QC the units and put them into different piles. They send the worst out as the first units. Some people don't know what to expect, so they don't complain. Those who do get units from the 2nd pile and so forth. It also took me 3 or 4 (can't remember) units of the K3 to get one where the power button didn't stick. By the 4th unit, perhaps you get the "cream of the crop" so that they can quit wasting money on postage. Like I said, it's just a theory...

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat

Mercedes's Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Second Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Third Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Fourth Kindle: ABOUT FRICKIN' TIME!

Way to go, You got one! I've gotten use to mine as long as I don't go looking at my K3 I forget the screen background is darker.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Blossom

Wow okay so the bezel does come into play largely on this. I am getting me a black skin when they come out.

As a photographer I can say for sure that the frame around an object makes the object look different and cause it to seemingly have different colors. The eye always sees an average of 18% grey in any scene. If a scene is not average, the eye will compensate both brightness and color. So.... Put a very bright red bezel around your kindle, and your screen will look as if it's dark green. On the other hand... Put a jet black bezel around the kindle and the screen will start to look bright white. The black bezel therefore improves the contrast of the screen.

That is also why pictures look best on very dark grey or black websites. Contrast is perceived to be better and colors pop more and look more saturated as compared to the same picture on a white page.

If my Kindle Touch that arrives tomorrow does not have a good enough contrast (I owned a black Cybook), then I will look into jet black skins for sure.

That guy earlier in the thread (post 35 and 41) that used the spectrometer actually did a very, very good test. The readings of his device suggest that the screens are very close, with the kindle 4 screen being the best with regard to contrast and neutrality. My calibrated monitor confirms this; the Nook screen actually looks a Tad greenish compared to the kindle screen, and I can see the contrast / black level differences clearly. Still, I think that they are so very close that used fonts and rendering, and the devices bezel color (which should ALWAYS be black, imho) will have a bigger impact on readability than the production differences between the individual screens.

Blossom: doesn't the K3 have a darker bezel than the K4? Don't know on top of my head. If so, you may just see the K3's as being brighter, while it actually isn't, as explained above. Getting a black skin may be your solution. The only way to see if the K3 really *is* brighter, is to objectively measure it.

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Blossom: doesn't the K3 have a darker bezel than the K4? Don't know on top of my head. If so, you may just see the K3's as being brighter, while it actually isn't, as explained above. Getting a black skin may be your solution. The only way to see if the K3 really *is* brighter, is to objectively measure it.

Both black skins on both devices didn't change much of anything. I wasted $25 dollars to find that out. It made the K4 background look muttled and ugly while the K3 I couldn't tell much if difference of any change.

I think the only change with my Kindles is the lighting. I took my K4 to my in laws for Christmas. They have clear lightbulbs. The K4 looked alot better than in my normal lighting which is those curly bulbs in soft white but the lighting globes here are tinted yellow. My K4 is more susceptible to lighting changes. The K3 does not have this issue. It stays pretty consistent no matter what indoor lighting it is in.

So my conclusion in the K4 (at least mine is) sensitive to indoor lighting conditions. Now what changed between the K3 and K4 to make it like that I have no idea.

[Katsunami]

Strange... Shinew's tests (he must either be a photographer, or a DTP-guy to have such good grasp of this color management stuff) decisively and objectively prove that the K3 and K4 screens are similar enough to the point that they can be called the same, bar any defective ones of course. The only thing making them look different would be personal perception, lighting conditions, or surrounding colors such as the bezel, or cases wrapped around the device. Therefore I (and probably Shinew also) are unable to explain why your K4 consistently looks worse than your K3, assuming the K4 is not defective. Sorry...

I just hope mine will be fine. I don't have my old Bokeen Cybook from 2008 anymore. Could not get over the fact that it was not a paper book so I sold it after two months. Now, exactly 4 years later, with a bookcase that is really getting out of hand, I'll try again...

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Strange... Shinew's tests (he must either be a photographer, or a DTP-guy to have such good grasp of this color management stuff) decisively and objectively prove that the K3 and K4 screens are similar enough to the point that they can be called the same, bar any defective ones of course. The only thing making them look different would be personal perception, lighting conditions, or surrounding colors such as the bezel, or cases wrapped around the device. Therefore I (and probably Shinew also) are unable to explain why your K4 consistently looks worse than your K3, assuming the K4 is not defective. Sorry...

I just hope mine will be fine. I don't have my old Bokeen Cybook from 2008 anymore. Could not get over the fact that it was not a paper book so I sold it after two months. Now, exactly 4 years later, with a bookcase that is really getting out of hand, I'll try again...

You should be fine specially if you never had a pearl screen. It's only when you had a pearl screen of amazing contrast then go back to something between vizplex and pearl that you really notice a difference. I was spoiled with my K3 but I've learn to deal with the difference my K4 has. My first K4 looked like vizplex text with dark grey background. I had it replaced to the one I use now which is light grey and almost black text. It looks like a newspaper to give a better description.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat

Mercedes's Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Second Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Third Kindle: dark screen
Mercedes's Fourth Kindle: ABOUT FRICKIN' TIME!

The demo Kindle Touch I saw at Walmart was a bit too dark and the black text was not that black. If it was the screen I got, I'd be returning it ASAP. I've seen better Vizplex eink screens.

Good job not taking substandard screens. I am surprised though at hoe many screens I read about that are not all that good. I still think Amazon should check each Kindle screen before shipping.

[geekmaster]

JSWolf made the same claims about the K4NT and the Touch, and is now injecting that same biased opinion into this K3 and K4 thread. JSWolf has made extraordinary claims in other threads about other topics as well, which were decisively refuted by multiple senior members of the Kindle forums. Did an Internet Troll hijack the JSWolf account?

And once again, just to clarify the matter of eInk comparisons, (and I repeat myself):

The Kindle pearl eInk screen contrast depends greatly on temperature, how long it has sat idle since the last screen refresh, and how many pages since a full flash update.

Because the new kindles do not do a full flash update on every page, comparing two identical kindles side-by-side will yield different results at different times.

The screen contrast is much better when the displays are warm, because they contain oil-filled beads. The oil viscosity changes with temperature. The screens contain a temperature sensor, which is used by the display driver software to tune the screen refresh algorithm to compensate for temperature differences. The beads also contain black and white charged particles, which are attracted to the top or bottom surface of the screen with an electrical charge, with controlling waveforms that must be adjusted in both period and magnitude to maximize contrast.

The only realistic method to compare two units is to let them sit together awhile to equalize temperatures, then to exercise the screens by viewing multiple pages, then go to the page to compare and force multiple screen full flash updates. This can be done in a number of ways, such as taking a screen snapshot, or selecting and deselecting the menu.

EDIT: The kindle eink screens are calibrated for 25 degrees C, and that is the temperature at which they should be judged.

Any other conclusion from comparing two units is a silly waste of nonsense.

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by geekmaster

The Kindle pearl eInk screen contrast depends greatly on temperature, how long it has sat idle since the last screen refresh, and how many pages since a full flash update.

Because the new kindles do not do a full flash update on every page, comparing two identical kindles side-by-side will yield different results at different times.

The screen contrast is much better when the displays are warm, because they contain dark oil-filled beads. The oil viscosity changes with temperature. The screens contain a temperature sensor, which is used by the display driver software to tune the screen refresh algorithm to compensate for temperature differences. The beads also contain zinc oxide powder, which is attracted to the top or bottom surface of the screen with an electrical charge, with controlling waveforms that must be adjusted in both period and magnitude to maximize contrast.

The only realistic method to compare two units is to let them sit together awhile to equalize temperatures, then to exercise the screens by viewing multiple pages, then go to the page to compare and force multiple screen full flash updates. This can be done in a number of ways, such as taking a screen snapshot, or selecting and deselecting the menu.

EDIT: The kindle eink screens are calibrated for 25 degrees C, and that is the temperature at which they should be judged.

Any other conclusion from comparing two units is a silly waste of nonsense.

Nice explanation. You wouldn't know what would make one display more susceptible to lighting condition then the other would you? My K4 is very susceptible to lighting conditions and my K3 isn't.

I've done comparisons just like you suggested to make sure I wasn't seeing things. I've compare my two units every which way till I was like what's the point. My K3 now sits on it's shelf lonely and I use my K4 for reading. I forgot how good my K3 screens Looks till I was using it the other day. So if it bothers you, only use one and you'll forget how the other one looks eventually.