Untranslatable Words

[zelda_pinwheel]

i have a friend who lives in Japan and sometimes she has explained a bit about how social hierarchy works there ; i agree, i can't think of any way to easily translate that (but i'm far from qualified). once she explained that she was studying "respectful japanese" (that's not the real name, i can't remember what it was), because when addressing someone of much higher social status japanese use such an elaborate code of polite formulas and honorific word-forms as to constitude almost another language. we (in french) have polite ways of adressing strangers, elders and bosses in french as well, like "vous" instead of "tu" (english used to have this disctinction) but nothing near as complex, and social interaction is not nearly so codified here, groups are much more fluid and i would say that someone *not* being your equal within your group would be the exception, rather than the opposite...

but i like the idea of affectionate or honorific endings (i like to call people chéri(e) in daily life too, in a vaguely ironic (because the beauty of "chéri" is that it's simultaneously sweet and just a bit ringard...) but still affectionate way...), so i'm going to try to remember these. don't be surprised if i start calling people "nekokami-chan" and "taylor-chan" (i know, i know : not usually for boys... i don't care.)

[Taylor514ce]

What, there's grammar on that page?

[zelda_pinwheel]

what page ? the one i linked to ? not grammar, history. read it, taylor-chan, it's really interesting.

EDIT : ha ! ": confused :" is an actual smiley !! who knew ?

[Taylor514ce]

I only saw a naked woman on a chair. If there was anything else on the page, I really didn't notice. (Actually, it's an interesting site, but hard to navigate.)

[zelda_pinwheel]

i agree, the ergonomy leaves to be desired. but i love the part about language ; i found it because that guy made an etymology dictionary which i adore.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

but i like the idea of affectionate or honorific endings (i like to call people chéri(e) in daily life too, in a vaguely ironic (because the beauty of "chéri" is that it's simultaneously sweet and just a bit ringard...) but still affectionate way...), so i'm going to try to remember these. don't be surprised if i start calling people "nekokami-chan" and "taylor-chan" (i know, i know : not usually for boys... i don't care.)

You may feel free to call me "nekokami-chan" or even "neko-chan" if you prefer. (Or chérie, for that matter.)

Yes, there are completely different levels of grammar used in Japanese, including different verb forms and even different verbs, depending on the relative status of the two speakers. There's a separate word used for "I" depending on whether the speaker is male or female, or subservient. (Men can use "boku" but women would use "watashi" or "watakushi".) The difference between "vous" and "tu" is somewhat similar, but there are more levels and shadings in Japanese, I think. This makes it extremely hard to translate speech to English, because there are so many shorthands for social levels embedded into the speech. Does the translator leave them out, because they don't equate to anything in English, or leave them in Japanese (my preference, actually), or resort to silly constructions like "honorable tea"? (Yes, there is an honorific prefix, o-, and yes, it is customarily used before tea, but only green tea!)

[nekokami]

Oh, and that doesn't even begin to get into the fact that you can write many words in Japanese in multiple ways: in kanji (whole words), hirigana (syllabary used for Japanese words), or katakana (syllabary used for borrowed foreign words and sound effects). For example, nekokami can be written as.... oops. I forgot, I'm not on my Mac. I don't have Japanese input on this machine. Ok, I'll post later. But the point is, if you write everything in hirigana, you're either a child or uncultured/uneducated-- maybe all of the above.

[zelda_pinwheel]

yes, japanese culture is ineffably complex ; i'm actually quite impressed by my friend who has managed to integrate herself so well (as much as a blond, blue-eyed czech girl living in Tokyo can hope to, i mean... ).

i prefer also that the honoric prefixes and suffixes be left in japanese, since there is no real equivalent ; although an explicative footnote is appreciated also... i have heard of -san before (of course) and i knew approximately what it means ; i had heard -chan but had no idea what it meant. the others i had never heard of.

do you speak japanese fluently, neko-chan chérie ? are you japanese (if that's not too indsicreet) ?

[GeoffC]

From my book, last night :

vopper : Given definition is "a trull that feigns madness", though it's not a word the OED recognises...

[zelda_pinwheel]

but what is a trull ???

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

but what is a trull ???

You did ask - and that one is in the dictionary....

trull (trl)
n.
A woman prostitute.
[Perhaps from German Trulle, from Middle High German trulle; akin to Old Norse troll, creature, troll.]

Which ties in nicely, because the scene in the book is in Germany...

[zelda_pinwheel]

that's hilarious. how often could you possibly need to describe that precise situation, yet there is a word for it...

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

that's hilarious. how often could you possibly need to describe that precise situation, yet there is a word for it...

I see voppers all the time.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

I see voppers all the time.

There is no "polite" answer to that!!!

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

do you speak japanese fluently, neko-chan chérie ? are you japanese (if that's not too indsicreet) ?

Not fluently, no. And I'm not Japanese. I was a linguistics major and I had three semesters in college (a long time ago) and I watch a lot of anime in Japanese (generally with subtitles). I used to be able to handle ordering food in a Japanese restaurant (and once really startled a waiter whose attention I had been unsuccessfully trying to get by singing out "sumimasen!" [excuse me] in apparently a perfect accent-- he was obviously looking around for a Japanese girl), but most of my Japanese skill has been swamped by trying to learn Chinese from our daughters. I've been trying to build it up again, though, as I'm working on a manga story set in Japan and I'd like to get the culture right.