Geographic restrictions - a different perspective

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by bevdeforges

Actually, it's the business model that is at fault here. There's no reason an author (or publisher) couldn't hold and sell the "worldwide English language" rights to a given title. The translation rights would still be available for sale and distribution rights could be linked to the language of the work rather than the geographical point of sale. (After all, the translator has a right to compensation, too.)

The author DOES hold the worldwide rights and then sells them on... if you read the thread, you will see that geo-restrictions do NOT just relate to translation rights, they relate to areas of the world that have differing distribution even if they (nominally) speak and read the same language...

And you'll also see that the primary reason, for geo rights, dates to the fact that publishers weren't multi-nationals until relatively recently hence an author would have been an idiot to sell world rights to a company that only distributed in the US and eBooks didn't exist seriously until recently... now we need the facts of multi-nationality and eBooks to be taken into account but you can't just scrap existing contractual requirements... it's another thing that will take some time to catch up to the real world...

Oh yes, translators do get compensated... they get paid to do a job like anyone else and that's it...

[taustin]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

They call it Amazon, you know? Or the Book Depository, which ships from the UK (I'm on the continent). Or dozens of other stores.

Mail order is a different animal entirely, and far more complicated. Publishers, for instance, would actually be prohibited from selling you a book directly outside the area they have distribution rights to. But you don't buy from the publisher directly.

Same is true of buying an ebook from Amazon, but in the case of a paper book, you're talking about a physical product, for which there is a couple of centuries of case law regarding the first sale doctrine. Once the wholesaler owns a copy of a physical object, the publisher has very little control over what they can do with it by law, and contracts can't modify that. Extensive case law.

The same principle really can't be applied to ebooks (or any other digital media) because of the trivial nature of making infinite perfect copies. Hence, the current trent towards thinking of ebook purchases is licenses rather than purchases (while maintaining the financial advantages to the publisher of treating it as a purchase - that's where greed and stupidity come in).

Publishers are trying to preserve the best of the old business model, while screwing everybody out of everything from the new technology. And authors often (I suspect) have a very unrealistic expectation of what those magical world-wide rights are really worth, and their agents don't have much of a vested interest in teaching them better.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by elcreative

Oh yes, translators do get compensated... they get paid to do a job like anyone else and that's it...

I'm afraid it's slightly more complicated than that.

Originally Posted by taustin

Mail order is a different animal entirely, and far more complicated.

So how does that support your initial argument? It can be done with physical goods, it routinely is done, it should be comparatively straight forward with digital goods.

... for which there is a couple of centuries of case law regarding the first sale doctrine.

We actually have it on the books, but yes, the principle is the same. Could that be done with ebooks? Absolutely. Will it be done? Not in the near future, I'm afraid. Publishers are far too busy trying to segment the global market to their advantage.

Hence, the current trent towards thinking of ebook purchases is licenses rather than purchases ...

We'll see about that; it will probably depend upon your jurisdiction. If ebooks are classified as software this opens a whole 'nother can of worms (over here, at least), and publishers are trying hard to prevent that from happening.

Publishers are trying to preserve the best of the old business model, while screwing everybody out of everything from the new technology.

So, stupidity and greed, after all?

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by taustin

Mail order is a different animal entirely, and far more complicated. Publishers, for instance, would actually be prohibited from selling you a book directly outside the area they have distribution rights to. But you don't buy from the publisher directly.

Same is true of buying an ebook from Amazon, but in the case of a paper book, you're talking about a physical product, for which there is a couple of centuries of case law regarding the first sale doctrine. Once the wholesaler owns a copy of a physical object, the publisher has very little control over what they can do with it by law, and contracts can't modify that. Extensive case law.

I'm afraid there's a mistake here. When a company is selling a physical good, the place to define if they have right to sell it to you is ITS localization, so it doesn't depend on the buyer. However, when they sell a service (ebooks are services), the place to define if they have right to sell to you is YOUR address. So, they don't have to do anything, law is different in both cases.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by kiwipippa

I'm not sure I agree with the OP about authors driving this. That may traditionally have been the case, but in my opinion, the blame lies fairly and squarely with the publishers - most authors have just gone along for the ride as the model transitions to the internet. I hope more pull away from publishers and go direct, but I can't see that happening to mainstream authors anytime soon.

I know you'd rather blame the faceless publisher than the hardworking author - but this makes *no* sense.

How can it be the fault of the publisher when the publisher doesn't have the rights to sell a book in certain markets? If - you use a non-US example - Patrick Sueskind sells the European rights to "Das Parfum" to Diogenes, how could it be Diogenes fault that the book isn't available in New Zealand when they don't operation in N.Z., and even if they did, do not have the right to sell the book in N.Z. because the author didn't give them that right?

[pwalker8]

Keep in mind that the reading public is _not_ the customer for the publishers, the book shops are. In addition, until fairly recently, the copyright laws were different from country to country and copyrights were not necessarily honored in between countries (example, the first paperback version of LOTR's in the US was an unauthorized edition by Ace.) Things are slowly changing.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

I'm afraid it's slightly more complicated than that.



So how does that support your initial argument? It can be done with physical goods, it routinely is done, it should be comparatively straight forward with digital goods.

Because ebook files are not physical goods. The same laws cannot be applied without extensive re-interpretation.

And geo-restrictions are rooted in contracts signed by both author and publisher, and were included to protect the author's interests, not the publishers.

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

So, stupidity and greed, after all?

Never said that wasn't part of it. Just that it's caused by authors as much as (or perhaps even more) by publishers.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

I'm afraid there's a mistake here. When a company is selling a physical good, the place to define if they have right to sell it to you is ITS localization, so it doesn't depend on the buyer. However, when they sell a service (ebooks are services), the place to define if they have right to sell to you is YOUR address. So, they don't have to do anything, law is different in both cases.

Er, no. Mail order is considerably more complicated than that, but for most purposes the location of the sale is more the buyer's location than the seller's. That's why a company that has no presence is a particular state cannot be made to collect sales tax for sales to people in that state. But it's really not that cut & dried, and has more to do with the first sale doctrine than anything else. The wholesaler can't be bound by the restrictions of the contract between the author and the publisher without risking stepping on anti-trust laws, and the first sale doctrine doesn't apply to a license.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Keep in mind that the reading public is _not_ the customer for the publishers, the book shops are. In addition, until fairly recently, the copyright laws were different from country to country and copyrights were not necessarily honored in between countries (example, the first paperback version of LOTR's in the US was an unauthorized edition by Ace.) Things are slowly changing.

Huh? The Berne Convention dates back to 1886, though the US only formally signed on about a century later. Copyright laws do vary somewhat from country to country, yes, but virtually every country is a signatory now and has been for decades. The degree to which things vary hasn't changed much in 25 years. (And the LotR's debacle had little to do with variations in copyright law and much to do with the publisher, the British one, I think, screwing up.)

[VicLavigne]

I don't know the ins and outs of geogaphic restriction for ebooks.

What I do know, is there are long-dead authors who have ebooks for sale in the UK that I cannot buy in the US. Not sure why.

To top it off, one of the authors I have been seeking out, Gordon Dickson, is an American author and has plenty of pbooks available. His ebooks are primarily in the UK, which I am prevented from purchasing due to these stupid geographic restrictions. Something doesn't make sense in this.

Its supposed to be a global market. I've ordered physical goods from Europe a few times in the past, and twice from China. But an electronic ebook that can be downloaded? PROHIBITED.

Vic

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by VicLavigne

I don't know the ins and outs of geogaphic restriction for ebooks.

What I do know, is there are long-dead authors who have ebooks for sale in the UK that I cannot buy in the US. Not sure why.

To top it off, one of the authors I have been seeking out, Gordon Dickson, is an American author and has plenty of pbooks available. His ebooks are primarily in the UK, which I am prevented from purchasing due to these stupid geographic restrictions. Something doesn't make sense in this.

Its supposed to be a global market. I've ordered physical goods from Europe a few times in the past, and twice from China. But an electronic ebook that can be downloaded? PROHIBITED.

Vic

Simple... his UK publisher with UK rights has decided to pub as ebooks but limitations in original contracts (now held by his estate) preclude them from selling to areas outside those covered by the contracts... if you want them then the place to complain is the US publishers... and point out that they are available in the UK... and keep complaining, and get other Dickson fans to complain... if you're lucky then someone might eventually think it's worthwhile releasing in the US...

And what's supposed to be a global market??? Nothing is global until it's set to be so, just because the internet goes round the world and there are many multinationals, doesn't make a global market for everything... just a talked up myth...

[HansTWN]

It is a mess, and sadly I agree that it won't get any better soon. But let us count our blessings that we can easily get around those restrictions.

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

(ebooks are services),

Sez who? I use services, I read books. In my opinion ebooks are books, not services.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

Sez who? I use services, I read books. In my opinion ebooks are books, not services.

Defining them as services is the trick the publishers use to justify selling you a licence to read. Most of us just choose not to accept this.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by taustin

How often do you have the opportunity to buy a paper book from a US company while you are physical in Europe? It's not at all a comparable situation. That's why it's an issue now.

The last pbooks I bought online were bought from an US based company... Simply because they're cheaper... And that's why it's an issue now. Why can I buy one version of a book and not the other from the same shop?

It gets weirder. Why can't I even buy electronic (English!) books from an UK based firm? I mean, I'm in Europe, and last I checked, the UK was in Europe... And it's not like our local publishers publish books in English...