Pricing sucks!

[DiapDealer]

Why is it when something happens with eBooks (something not good), Amazon is there in the middle of it all? This is not a slight against Amazon, but an observation based on what's been going on.

Nice try. But it's rather hard to believe that "just this one time" a self-avowed Amazon detractor is simply being objective.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by gweeks

Yes, but you have the impact in the incorrect direction. With pbooks the publisher is providing the money to finance the book store. with ebooks they are not. That's an additional expense for pbooks that is not present for ebooks.

Greg Weeks

That's not the understanding I came away with the last time this topic was discussed. It depends, of course, on what costs are being taken into account, what money is being paid to the publisher, and what happens with returns.

But from what I was told - or at least think I was told - the book stores were providing money to the publishers in anticipation of sales - i.e., paying something for the books sent to them - and that money provided the cash flow the publishers needed to operate. I have no doubt, as well, that there are some tax aspects involved, allowing the parties to defer income or perhaps accelerate expenses, which will make cash flow different than what it would otherwise appear from merely considering profits or costs.

Perhaps you are in the publishing business & can authoritatively explain that this is not the case.

[gweeks]

Originally Posted by Harmon

That's not the understanding I came away with the last time this topic was discussed. It depends, of course, on what costs are being taken into account, what money is being paid to the publisher, and what happens with returns.

But from what I was told - or at least think I was told - the book stores were providing money to the publishers in anticipation of sales - i.e., paying something for the books sent to them - and that money provided the cash flow the publishers needed to operate. I have no doubt, as well, that there are some tax aspects involved, allowing the parties to defer income or perhaps accelerate expenses, which will make cash flow different than what it would otherwise appear from merely considering profits or costs.

Perhaps you are in the publishing business & can authoritatively explain that this is not the case.

The book stores are not paying cash up front, nor are they loaning money to the publishers. I suggest you go read up on the bankruptcy of Borders and the impact it has on publishers. You are obviously not going to believe anything I say about it.

Greg Weeks

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Never heard that one before. Perhaps they should consider the market realistically, but they certainly have no duty to do so.

In an ideal world, publishers have a responsibility to consider the market for their customers' benefit as well as their own. In our present world, that responsibility exists to protect their own business.

Not to scrutinize the market realistically means taking a greater risk that one's company will fail. It is something that CEOs seem to do out of ignorance, obliviousness or hubris. We've seen the repercussions in other markets in which electronic files replaced physical media.

At first, record companies were against creating online mp3 stores, and did not become involved until long after piracy had become more established online than any of their stores or even iTunes. They also demanded that mp3s be DRM-wrapped, songs and albums be overpriced and the quality of the files not be too high (FLAC, ALAC, etc.), which made day-to-day music use frustrating for customers and only increased the popularity of music piracy due to free use and the possibility of better quality -- which, again, resulted in losses and impeded sales.

These were unrealistic decisions and harmed the profits of the companies that made them.

I would argue that the disproportionate pricing of eBook editions of well-edited books by popular or prestigious writers drives many customers to buy less expensive books by lesser-known writers, and tempts others to the dark side -- piracy -- who feel no special ethical impetus to purchase books priced by people who also seem uninterested in fairness. That isn't good for the quality of our writing and it also isn't good for consumers or the business of publishing. Nor does it reinforce the idea -- in practice! -- that our interactions should be ethical, which is the very idea that allows sellers to expect readers to pay for books when punishment for theft seems unlikely. Sometimes we lose out by choosing the lowest common denominator over the highest.

And just to make this clear: I'm not talking about pricing ebooks at the level of bargain-bin cut-out paperbacks. I'm talking about pricing editions of new books proportionately in all formats, with the ebook versions slightly cheaper (at the very least) than their printed counterparts, and frequent promotional sales at the publisher's marketing level to get people in the habit of reading them enough to make them popular in the first place.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by gweeks

The book stores are not paying cash up front, nor are they loaning money to the publishers. I suggest you go read up on the bankruptcy of Borders and the impact it has on publishers. You are obviously not going to believe anything I say about it.

Greg Weeks

Why should I? It's your assertion - give me some reason to think that you know what you are talking about & I'll be glad to listen. Are you in the publishing industry? Are you engaged in buying and selling pbooks?

When someone who purports to know something about a topic tells me I'm wrong in something I think I know, then backs it up by telling me to go do research, I'm inclined to think that he doesn't know any more than I do, and perhaps less.

Helpful hint: the fact that a bankrupt book seller didn't pay its bills doesn't tell us anything about the normal practices of solvent book sellers.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

And just to make this clear: I'm not talking about pricing ebooks at the level of bargain-bin cut-out paperbacks. I'm talking about pricing editions of new books proportionately in all formats, with the ebook versions slightly cheaper (at the very least) than their printed counterparts, and frequent promotional sales at the publisher's marketing level to get people in the habit of reading them enough to make them popular in the first place.

This is the part that puzzles me. The argument that ebooks should be cheaper is premised on the fact that the costs associated with the production and distribution of ebooks are less than those associated with pbooks. I'm willing to take that as given - ebooks cost less to produce than pbooks. More precisely, the marginal copy of an ebook costs nothing other than miniscule bandwidth to produce and distribute, whereas the marginal copy of the pbook costs more to produce and distribute.

But why should the cost of production and distribution have anything to do with the price, other than that the price should be greater than that cost? In a normal market, the "fair" price is that price which the buyer is willing to pay that produces the greatest profit for the seller.

I'm willing to agree with the argument that the public is entitled to a better deal than that produced by the normal market, since the book market involves a time-limited monopoly granted by law to the seller. What I don't get is why anyone should believe that the price of a pbook version and that of an ebook version of the same book should bear any particular relationship to each other. Why shouldn't a paperback version be cheaper than an electronic version?

I can easily imagine a situation where a publisher would price the hardback higher than the ebook (due to the beauty and permanence of the hardback,) the ebook less but still higher than the paperback (due to the portability of the ebook) and the paperback less than either (since it's a one-read throwaway.)

And let me tell you, I would be far happier paying twice as much for Infinite Jest in ebook form than in any pbook form, assuming that the footnotes were workable.

[gweeks]

Originally Posted by Harmon

Why should I? It's your assertion - give me some reason to think that you know what you are talking about & I'll be glad to listen. Are you in the publishing industry? Are you engaged in buying and selling pbooks?

When someone who purports to know something about a topic tells me I'm wrong in something I think I know, then backs it up by telling me to go do research, I'm inclined to think that he doesn't know any more than I do, and perhaps less.

Helpful hint: the fact that a bankrupt book seller didn't pay its bills doesn't tell us anything about the normal practices of solvent book sellers.

Because you won't believe any research I dig up either as long as it disagrees with your pre-conceived opinion. It's not worth my time to do a google search for you just to have you ignore it anyway. It's not like it takes serious research.

Greg Weeks

I've got to add, you made the assertion that bookstores were providing "loans" to publishers for pbooks without any documentation for this. This is the reason you gave for ebooks to cost more than pbooks. I called you on this and you are asking ME to provide documentation?

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by Harmon

But why should the cost of production and distribution have anything to do with the price, other than that the price should be greater than that cost? In a normal market, the "fair" price is that price which the buyer is willing to pay that produces the greatest profit for the seller.

How much profit does a publisher make when consumers like me refuse to buy their overpriced ebooks?

It's not like they're selling an essential commodity that I'll end up buying anyway. I can refuse to buy their products without any adverse effects upon my lifestyle.

Bottom line: screw 'em

[Ninjalawyer]

The real reason pricing is high: price fixing.

The European Commission has opened a formal antitrust investigation of Hachette Libre, Harper Collins, Simon & Schuster, Penguin and the German owner of Macmillan for possible "anti-competitive practices" in the way they've sold e-books in Europe, "possibly with the help of Apple."

[GregoryDahler]

My $0.02 - ebook prices have been a bit disappointing in general. In my mind, once something is in digital form and therefore easily duplicated, it should become much cheaper.

[Rizla]

Why do dogs lick their balls? Because they can.

Our whole economic system is based on profit rather than balance. i.e. greed. The planet is not far from going tits up because of it.

[GregoryDahler]

Rizla, I think that's a good reason to sift through more of the lesser known authors who are self publishing. By voting with your dollar (or lack thereof) things can change. As long as readers write reviews and bump authors they like, of course. Then everything can shift and there may be less of a greed factor in pricing.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by GregoryDahler

My $0.02 - ebook prices have been a bit disappointing in general. In my mind, once something is in digital form and therefore easily duplicated, it should become much cheaper.

eBooks generally ARE much cheaper than pBooks. I buy most of my eBooks at Amazon UK, and typically the eBook is around two thirds the price of the pBook, and that's including 20% VAT, which the eBook has and the pBook doesn't.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by HarryT

and that's including 20% VAT, which the eBook has and the pBook doesn't.

15% VAT. Amazon ebook sales come under their Luxembourg VAT registration.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

15% VAT. Amazon ebook sales come under their Luxembourg VAT registration.

Thank you - good point.