In Switzerland Downloading Copyrighted Materials for personal Use is Legal

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm a little puzzled about why you think that this is going to affect Sweden?

Originally Posted by Fayth

We don't have international law. Each country has to decide what is the best way to handle piracy. I think this is better than what has been done in most places. Laws in the US facilitate the extortion of their citizens by big media companies, with the only evidence being an IP address. In Sweden, they remove any penalty from the downloader and go after the source, the uploader.

I don't think this effects Sweden much really, my commentary was meant more to say that I think this kind of policy would be good to adopt in other countries. Torrent sites hide behind the fact that they don't actually host pirated data... then change the laws so that it doesn't matter. Forget trying to go after downloaders and start going after uploaders and anyone who facilitates that uploading. It would be easy enough to distinguish a torrent site with legal content from one with illegal content too. Once you've gone after uploaders effectively, downloaders will have very little to download from.

Fayth, I think Harry meant how you kept saying "Sweden", when the article was about a ruling in Switzerland. I don't think the Swiss would like being lumped in with the Swedes.

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

It used to be that MS Windows and Office, Photoshop, Illustrator and a few other programs had such ineffective security that you could swap CDs with these programs and an included key in text form, and install them on as many PCs as you could find. No longer, since security has been upgraded, and each software requires you to verify online (and will disable the SW if it is already registered to a small number of users).

So I suppose Switzerland considers Microsoft and Adobe to be criminal organizations for preventing its citizens to download and use their software without paying.

I don't think it is anything of the sort, just that they're not going to prosecute people who pirate for personal use, because they feel it is so rampant and has so little effect on the economy. From what I read on it, the announcement was more or less stating that just because someone didn't pay for one thing, doesn't mean they're not going to pay for something else, and I also got the vibe of the argument of if it wasn't available for download would they have bought it at all.

[Belfaborac]

Originally Posted by karunaji

It is not ethical to enjoy creative content without duly compensating creators of these works. That much we can probably all agree with.

That's certainly my thinking. I pay for everything that I enjoy and use, but admittedly not everything I sample. Much like I find it unproblematic to go into a shop and try on a pair of trousers without buying them, I find it perfectly acceptable to download an album and delete it if I don't like it and would never listen to it again. Just like clothes, music is not a single-use product.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Who is the creator? What if the consumer of said content has no "money", nor any means to access "money" Would a plate of cookies be adequate?

Actually it is a good point about money. As we all know, money is not real. It is only a mutually agreed system controlled by few entities. And that system doesn't resemble anything fair or honest as we might commonly think about it. The money is created out of thin air, banks multiply it, debts provide yields, there is inflation that lowers its value etc. But by all measures the system works quite well. Sometimes not so well and then the system is propped up, some rules are changed, more money is given to biggest banks etc.

If one can understand how money works then why is it not possible to accept that intellectual property may require new set of rules that are different from physical goods.

[Namekuseijin]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Who is the creator?

It's the hungry guy that produced the free content solely for your fun and consumption.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by stonetools

In Pre- Internet days people bought their music based purely on recommendations and what they heard on the radio and from friends. Oddly enough , they bought and enjoyed more music than they do now.

Which is fine as long as you like manufactured pop music or have friends who share your tastes in music. There's a reason why the independent music scene has been thriving since the internet became popular.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

It used to be that MS Windows and Office, Photoshop, Illustrator and a few other programs had such ineffective security that you could swap CDs with these programs and an included key in text form, and install them on as many PCs as you could find.

You could argue that Microsoft would have never become so dominant if it wasn't for widespread piracy of their software in the early days. It was only after they had pretty much crushed all their competitors that they started taking it seriously and adding extra verification.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

You could argue that Microsoft would have never become so dominant if it wasn't for widespread piracy of their software in the early days. It was only after they had pretty much crushed all their competitors that they started taking it seriously and adding extra verification.

And you can say exactly the same thing about Adobe.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

I don't think it is anything of the sort, just that they're not going to prosecute people who pirate for personal use, because they feel it is so rampant and has so little effect on the economy. From what I read on it, the announcement was more or less stating that just because someone didn't pay for one thing, doesn't mean they're not going to pay for something else, and I also got the vibe of the argument of if it wasn't available for download would they have bought it at all.

I'm sure it won't have an effect on their economy... I'm a bit more concerned about how much it will effect a producer's economy...

And as I commented earlier, the idea that items would not be purchased if they were not available for free is a flawed argument. I'd hate to think the Swiss are that stupid... but there you go.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

And you can say exactly the same thing about Adobe.

In the case of Adobe I would go even further and say that graphic design employers would struggle to find employees with Photoshop skills if it wasn't for widespread piracy of that particular program.

[Quexos]

You guys seem disgruntled about this Swiss issue. It's legal over there, deal with it and move on !

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Quexos

You guys seem disgruntled about this Swiss issue. It's legal over there, deal with it and move on !

You guys seem disgruntled about that Greece issue. They're doomed over there, deal with it and move on.

[Quexos]

What are you talking about ? I'm not complaining on forums about the Greek situation.

And yeah they are doomed. They live on credit and went too far down that slope. What can we do right ? I'm moving on fine.

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

You guys seem disgruntled about that Greece issue. They're doomed over there, deal with it and move on.

[Fayth]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Fayth, I think Harry meant how you kept saying "Sweden", when the article was about a ruling in Switzerland. I don't think the Swiss would like being lumped in with the Swedes.

Ummmm wow. Yah, I have no idea why I kept saying Sweden. I'm also extremely disturbed by the fact that I still didn't notice it after being called out on it the first time... I was actually talking about it in Skype with a friend around the same time I responded to this thread, and I didn't make the same mistake...

/facepalm

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

I'm sure it won't have an effect on their economy... I'm a bit more concerned about how much it will effect a producer's economy...

And as I commented earlier, the idea that items would not be purchased if they were not available for free is a flawed argument. I'd hate to think the Swiss are that stupid... but there you go.

Well, it depends on the person. I know lots of people that only get stuff because they can get it for free, and as soon as the free way is no longer an option (DRM locks them out, etc), they simply do without. Typically those type of people have the mindset that it is cool to have if they can, but just not cool enough to be worth their money. I remember messing around with a friend's computer, because he was showing me all the games he had under MAME, and most of the games he'd never played, or only played once (some MAME frontends track number of plays and when it was last played). That seems to be the mentality of many many pirates. Back when I did emulation stuff, we called it "pokerom", where people had to have it because they could have it, not because they wanted to play them or had use for it. They just gotta get 'em all.

I mean, have you ever looked at various torrents for ebooks and the like? They'll have gigs upon gigs of ebooks, basically being more than anyone can read in a lifetime. And viewing the traffic activity, you can see most people have downloaded the entire thing. I can see where it would be easier to just have one big torrent when creating the initial torrent, but at the same time, the people can pick which they want to download. They don't have to get everything. Its pokerom all over again. You can't tell me that if piracy wasn't an option that those people would go out and buy every one of those books.

I know that this doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to a large chunk of people, to where even if not the majority it is still large enough to not be ignored.

Originally Posted by Fayth

Ummmm wow. Yah, I have no idea why I kept saying Sweden. I'm also extremely disturbed by the fact that I still didn't notice it after being called out on it the first time... I was actually talking about it in Skype with a friend around the same time I responded to this thread, and I didn't make the same mistake...

/facepalm

Eh, it happens.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

And you can say exactly the same thing about Adobe.

But Adobe gives (gave) away the reader for free, to encourage PDF's use. It think that was called advertizing....