In Switzerland Downloading Copyrighted Materials for personal Use is Legal

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by carld

Anyone who claims they didn't know that downloading the latest blockbuster movie or million selling album off of torrents is illegal is a liar.

Who claimed that?

[Fayth]

Doesn't Switzerland law still state that uploaders are doing illegal activity? If so, I'm with this change. There are only two ways a government can handle piracy, one is to go after the uploaders and the organizations who facilitate those uploaders, the other is to go after the downloaders. Done effectively, both would be equally good at handling piracy, however the first effects far less people than the second, and is far less likely to infringe the rights of citizens. Privacy is a very important issue when it comes to anti piracy methods. This method ensures the privacy of most citizens is protected.

EDIT: Somehow managed to get Sweden and Switzerland mixed up... don't ask :P

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by carld

Anyone who claims they didn't know that downloading the latest blockbuster movie or million selling album off of torrents is illegal is a liar.

Apparently it is legal to download in Switzerland. And honestly, I have no idea if it is legal or not in my country.

I often see old Soviet movies available on torrents. I don't know if it is true but I have heard that due to the fact that they belonged to the state, they are now in a public domain. Similarly to many BBC documentaries in the UK which are often also available on many download sites.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by kartu

there is an important point which is ALWAYS forgotten by pro-copyright group. (I'm a software developer too, by the way)

The fact that someone has obtained your software illegally most of the time does NOT mean, that he/she would have payed for it, if he/she couldn't get it for free!

This assumes there are only 2 kinds of buyers in this situation:

• Those who will obtain and use free software;
• Those who will not use software if it costs anything

When in fact, there are 3 kinds of buyers:

• Those who will obtain and use free software;
• Those who will not buy or use software if it costs anything
• Those who will buy software if they can't find it for free

Ask Microsoft or Adobe if sales of Windows, MS Office, Photoshop, InDesign, etc, have dropped to nothing because you cannot get them for free anymore.

There are plenty of people out there who may be willing to take free products that they want, but failing to find free versions, OR deciding that obtaining free products entails too much trouble or risk, will pay for them instead of walking away.

They are generally known as honest citizens (none of which, apparently, are running the government in Switzerland).

Oh, yeah: Swiss chocolate SUCKS. Buy South American cocoa.

[carld]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Apparently it is legal to download in Switzerland. And honestly, I have no idea if it is legal or not in my country.

I often see old Soviet movies available on torrents. I don't know if it is true but I have heard that due to the fact that they belonged to the state, they are now in a public domain. Similarly to many BBC documentaries in the UK which are often also available on many download sites.

You're right, laws vary from place to place. And there may be grey areas where ownership of any rights that might exist aren't clear. But that doesn't change my real point. In the US, and a lot of other western countries, anyone who can get on the internet and find the latest Harry Potter or Transformers movie for download knows full well that it's under copyright.

[carld]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Who claimed that?

I was obviously speaking generically, not about anyone specifically.

[Belfaborac]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

This assumes there are only 2 kinds of buyers in this situation:

• Those who will obtain and use free software;
• Those who will not use software if it costs anything

When in fact, there are 3 kinds of buyers:

• Those who will obtain and use free software;
• Those who will not buy or use software if it costs anything
• Those who will buy software if they can't find it for free

If we include music, there a 4 kinds. Those mentioned and those who download music to check if it is something they want to buy.

Personally I download absolute sh*itloads of music, simply because it is by far the most convenient way for me to check out potential new purchases. The few music stores which exist around where I live are utter crap, carrying almost exclusively whatever garbage that's likely to sell right now. Hence my only options are generally to buy things blind or download them first, which is an easy choice to make. Because I have the option to easily sample pirated music first, I would estimate that I buy at least 40-50% more music than I otherwise would have done.

Admittedly I'm likely not the usual kind of pirate, in that I'm old enough to want to own my music on physical CDs and LPs, which means I basically buy everything I like sufficiently. The remainder I delete, since don't like it enough to listen to it anyway. I don't own an MP3 player anyway (ok, my PRS-950 can play music, but it never will), so the files would just add to the clutter on my hard drive.

I'm sure the music business would like to see me in jail for this heinous crime, but quite frankly I have a hard time feeling bad about it.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

This assumes there are only 2 kinds of buyers in this situation:

• Those who will obtain and use free software;
• Those who will not use software if it costs anything

To call someone a buyer, wouldn't they have to buy first?

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

When in fact, there are 3 kinds of buyers:

• Those who will obtain and use free software;
• Those who will not buy or use software if it costs anything
• Those who will buy software if they can't find it for free

You are missing those tho would buy the software even if you can find it for free.

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Ask Microsoft or Adobe if sales of Windows, MS Office, Photoshop, InDesign, etc, have dropped to nothing because you cannot get them for free anymore.

You cannot get them for free anymore?

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I did not say that that was the case. If you look at my post again, you'll see that it was made in response to a post stating that the Swiss government compensated people for the downloads made by its citizens. I was simply enquiring how to go about claiming my share of this compensation.

If it is anything like the piracy tax some countries have on blank media, you will need to be paying your dues to whichever trade body "looks after" your industry to get anything. But even then most of what they collect will be swallowed up in "administration fees". The only fair way to do something like that would be to have creators register for payment, then monitor downloads of their creations in the same way that library loans are monitored in the UK.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

If we include music, there a 4 kinds. Those mentioned and those who download music to check if it is something they want to buy.

Personally I download absolute sh*itloads of music, simply because it is by far the most convenient way for me to check out potential new purchases. The few music stores which exist around where I live are utter crap, carrying almost exclusively whatever garbage that's likely to sell right now. Hence my only options are generally to buy things blind or download them first, which is an easy choice to make. Because I have the option to easily sample pirated music first, I would estimate that I buy at least 40-50% more music than I otherwise would have done.

Admittedly I'm likely not the usual kind of pirate, in that I'm old enough to want to own my music on physical CDs and LPs, which means I basically buy everything I like sufficiently. The remainder I delete, since don't like it enough to listen to it anyway. I don't own an MP3 player anyway (ok, my PRS-950 can play music, but it never will), so the files would just add to the clutter on my hard drive.

I'm sure the music business would like to see me in jail for this heinous crime, but quite frankly I have a hard time feeling bad about it.

It never ceases to amaze me how the something for nothing crowd can manufacture reasons to justify their desire to steal.
In Pre- Internet days people bought their music based purely on recommendations and what they heard on the radio and from friends. Oddly enough , they bought and enjoyed more music than they do now.
Why don't you just bluntly say that you like to get something for nothing and stop trying to pretty things up with nonsense like " I'm actually doing musicians a favor by downloading from pirate sites? " Serriously, nobody believes you, nor do they care whether you feel bad or not.

[Belfaborac]

What amazes me is the necessarily elaborate mental process which must underlie the twisting of what I wrote, in order to make me a "something for nothing" kind of guy. Quite impressive, if a little spooky.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Fayth

Doesn't Swedish law still state that uploaders are doing illegal activity? If so, I'm with this change. There are only two ways a government can handle piracy, one is to go after the uploaders and the organizations who facilitate those uploaders, the other is to go after the downloaders. Done effectively, both would be equally good at handling piracy, however the first effects far less people than the second, and is far less likely to infringe the rights of citizens. Privacy is a very important issue when it comes to anti piracy methods. This method ensures the privacy of most citizens is protected.

I mean, wasn't it the Swedish police who raided a piratebay warehouse/whatever they use to run their site?

I'm a little puzzled about why you think that this is going to affect Sweden?

[carld]

Originally Posted by Belfaborac

What amazes me is the necessarily elaborate mental process which must underlie the twisting of what I wrote, in order to make me a "something for nothing" kind of guy. Quite impressive, if a little spooky.

"Personally I download absolute sh*itloads of music" makes you a "something for nothing" kind of guy, no mental gymnastics required.

[Belfaborac]

If that was all you could be bothered to read, then I suppose it's vaguely understandable. It's a shame you didn't manage the remainder.

[Fayth]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm a little puzzled about why you think that this is going to affect Sweden?

We don't have international law. Each country has to decide what is the best way to handle piracy. I think this is better than what has been done in most places. Laws in the US facilitate the extortion of their citizens by big media companies, with the only evidence being an IP address. In Switzerland, they remove any penalty from the downloader and go after the source, the uploader.

I don't think this effects Switzerland much really, my commentary was meant more to say that I think this kind of policy would be good to adopt in other countries. Torrent sites hide behind the fact that they don't actually host pirated data... then change the laws so that it doesn't matter. Forget trying to go after downloaders and start going after uploaders and anyone who facilitates that uploading. It would be easy enough to distinguish a torrent site with legal content from one with illegal content too. Once you've gone after uploaders effectively, downloaders will have very little to download from.

EDIT: Yah... I got mixed up...