Playing the sex card

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Mayzshon

Here's a question: Where is the dividing line between erotica and porn?

Bias of the reader. There is no objective line. No company that says "we allow erotica but not porn" has given any objective standards, or even a list of examples of "this book is in one category & this book is in the other."

There is no legal definition of "pornography." There's sort-of a definition of "obscenity" (which involves "community standards"), and isn't subject to first amendment protections, but isn't specifically illegal.

KDP's term's of service forbids porn, but they allow erotica. They allowed the title above to be published, but a similar title that was slightly more explicit was blocked.
I'm just not sure where the limits are.

Authors and publishers are stuck dealing with "we can yank your book from our shelves anytime we like if we decide it doesn't suit our taste in literature."

[Mayzshon]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

We could answer that in general, but that really does not matter for the specific case of KDP because it is where THEY put the line. In my experience ever store defines that line differently.

Oh yes, I understand that. I was more intersted in getting people's opinions on where they personally place the line.
One problem with Amazon is that they don't have guidelines posted anyplace, so the dividing line is kind of vague. Should I try to do another one, I'll try sticking to the rules posted at DeviantArt, and hope they are more or less the same.

IMO in Erotica the point is the story and the sex/etc is a way of telling it. In porn the point is the sex, and the story is there as a lame excuse but I do not read either so that might not be a valid line.

That's interesting. I would have said the level of explicitness, but I believe you may be right, it's a matter of which is more important story or sex.

I suppose it's sort of like defining what constitutes an artistic nude in the visual art world.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

I agree with the general idea that "erotica has more of a story, porn is primarily about depicting sex." However, there is a football field-sized area of greyness even in that definition. It leaves the writer's ability in question, ie, is the story they wrote a good story? If it's bad, does his erotic work suddenly become porn? And if a writer writes an incredible story around the most explicit and raw sex scenes, does it skew from porn to erotica?

Sex is one of the last areas of media that are so vaguely, subjectively handled based on archaic social, political and religious standards. But as other forms of media are breaking out of those standards--take a look at shows like Spartacus, for example--literature is, as usual, bringing up the rear (and largely missing the pun intended in that statement).

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

However, there is a football field-sized area of greyness even in that definition.

That is true of every genre. Just start a thread on if Star Wars is sci fi or fantasy and see what happens. Thats main reason I leave any genre in such broad terms, its all subjective.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

I agree with the general idea that "erotica has more of a story, porn is primarily about depicting sex." However, there is a football field-sized area of greyness even in that definition.

Which is not helped by so many ebook sales sites claiming they "don't publish pornography" but do allow erotica--which means no author or publisher is free to say "this section of what we do is porn, and that part is erotica." Officially, to be carried in those shops, it has to all be "erotica." The line's not going to get any more solid as long as "pornography" is forbidden to sell; publishers will insist that everything they have is "erotica" instead.

Since there's no objective definition, that's easy enough to claim. The new tangles come from erotica that's not in the "romance" main genre, where the main plot isn't a developing relationship but something else--a murder mystery, or a space exploration, or a wartime action story, with enough sex being described in detail to either need to be tagged "erotica" (because the sex is more noticeable than the other plot elements) or needs some kind of warning to people who like their mysteries, spaceships and wars not to include detailed sex.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

I'm beginning to think that, instead of thinking of sex as a card to be played, maybe it should be thought of as kicking over the table...

[ekster]

On Porn vs Erotica... I just always figured that erotica is for women and porn is for men.

(I'm kidding of course!)

[Keryl Raist]

Porn and erotica are the same thing. They serve the same purpose. The only difference is erotica makes the reader happy, and porn makes them unhappy.

Enough people complain to KDP or wherever about your title, and you've got porn.

As for erotic content in non-romance, I'd definitely suggest letting the reader know you've got it tucked into your book. A brief for mature audiences only or tags along those lines is a good plan.

I was on one board where the reviewer was talking about how much he loved the book, how well written it was, and how he was going to give it two stars because of a two page sex scene. He doesn't like explicit sex in his books. More power to him and all, but it'd be a good plan to let guys like that know the book is going to turn them off.

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by Keryl Raist

I was on one board where the reviewer was talking about how much he loved the book, how well written it was, and how he was going to give it two stars because of a two page sex scene. He doesn't like explicit sex in his books. More power to him and all, but it'd be a good plan to let guys like that know the book is going to turn them off.

I respectfully disagree. I think that was very unprofessional of that reviewer. I'm fairly sure that no one would have understood or forgiven his reasoning if it had been a detailed description of a soccer game that led to the low grade. I don't like reading about soccer games in my books, so I can give two stars to what I thought was a 5-star novel until I came across that two-page soccer game scene?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous.

Two little pages should not have that much power over the final grade, particularly not if he liked the rest of the book as much as he claimed to.

But it is a beautiful illustration of that double standard that we all, myself included, apply to explicit sex in writing.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Keryl Raist

Porn and erotica are the same thing. They serve the same purpose. The only difference is erotica makes the reader happy, and porn makes them unhappy.

There are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with porn, and don't like erotica. IMO, using "porn" as a word that implicitly denotes something "bad" is wrong. I would describe it as being "explicit," "raw," "primal," etc. But not "bad;" that's a personal judgment.

Originally Posted by ScalyFreak

But it is a beautiful illustration of that double standard that we all, myself included, apply to explicit sex in writing.

This.

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

There are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with porn

As evidenced by the fact that it's one of the most lucrative industries in the civilized world.

To label either one of them as bad or good is misleading. I think it's more accurate to say that the two words are used to describe essentially the same thing, but "porn" is less accepted in civilized society than "erotica" is. I can imagine that someone who earns their living writing erotica doesn't want to be described as a "porn writer", but since that typically means "screenplay writer in the adult movie industry", that wouldn't be very accurate either.

It's like the difference between an exotic dancer and a stripper. One label is considered more "sleazy", than the other, but they both refer to the exact same thing in the end.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by ScalyFreak

As evidenced by the fact that it's one of the most lucrative industries in the civilized world.

People tend to state this as if it's something the "civilized world" should be ashamed of. I don't see why... especially if we're not "ashamed" of media depicting and glorifying war, senseless and sensationalist violence or crude comedy.

Sex is just another aspect of what it is to be human... heck, to be any sort of animal. It's as natural as eating... and today we have shows that depict hosts traveling the country and eating (often to great excess) any greasy, fatty, nasty, unhealthy food they can get their mitts on. No one's attacking them for scandalizing healthy society or corrupting our youth.

I see no reason why sex should be singled out, among all of those other subjects, for censure and ostracization.

[crich70]

I think one of the differences between porn and erotica is the connection to reality. In porn the characters can be perfect 10's or do all sorts of 'sexual' acts some of which would get them arrested in the real world while in erotica things are more realistic in nature. There is more of an emotional investment in the characters in erotica too. You get to know some of the hopes, dreams and desires of the characters and how such are related to the sexual interactions of the characters. In porn on the other hand the point is merely to get the characters into bed and let them go at it. Their momentary desires are all that matters. No emotional investment, no getting to know the other person. Just pleasure for its own sake.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

People tend to state this as if it's something the "civilized world" should be ashamed of. I don't see why... especially if we're not "ashamed" of media depicting and glorifying war, senseless and sensationalist violence or crude comedy.

Sex is just another aspect of what it is to be human... heck, to be any sort of animal. It's as natural as eating... and today we have shows that depict hosts traveling the country and eating (often to great excess) any greasy, fatty, nasty, unhealthy food they can get their mitts on. No one's attacking them for scandalizing healthy society or corrupting our youth.

I see no reason why sex should be singled out, among all of those other subjects, for censure and ostracization.

Ah but Steven there is a difference between eating and sex as far as the direct effects of the same. When someone eats to excess indulging in unhealthy foods or unhealthy amounts of food their actions have a direct effect only on themselves. With sex on the other hand there is the effect it may have a direct devastating impact on another person or persons. You can't be infected by obesity and its side effects like you can by a std.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by crich70

I think one of the differences between porn and erotica is the connection to reality. In porn the characters can be perfect 10's or do all sorts of 'sexual' acts some of which would get them arrested in the real world while in erotica things are more realistic in nature.

Based on some passages I've read, this doesn't sound accurate... in fact, it seems to be exactly the opposite in many cases, with porn (raw sex) being much more realistic than erotica (romanticized sex).

Originally Posted by crich70

Ah but Steven there is a difference between eating and sex as far as the direct effects of the same. When someone eats to excess indulging in unhealthy foods or unhealthy amounts of food their actions have a direct effect only on themselves. With sex on the other hand there is the effect it may have a direct devastating impact on another person or persons. You can't be infected by obesity and its side effects like you can by a std.

Excess eating can cause poisoning, liver or kidney failure, diabetes, strokes, heart attacks. Sounds serious to me. And sex doesn't have to have a "devastating impact" on others with the application of a little protection. So it must be more than that.