Book publisher files mass BitTorrent lawsuit

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

He seems to be talking about downloaders, not uploaders. I'm with Jan, it is the original uploader that is at fault, assuming there is any fault, because they are an unauthorised publisher.

"The path to hell is paved with good intentions", isn't it? The need to identify the source of the pirated material has given birth to the watermarking, credit card numbers being used as DRM keys, etc. God only knows how many of the "sources" for the pirated retail books were clueless victims of hacking/trojan_attacks. Good luck bearing a burden of proof that you were hacked (or your reader lost) in that scenario...

These lawsuits are nothing more than the scare tactics, but I seriously doubt that they are effective. It has been tried before, and it did not help much. The only practical solution, to offer books at a price that makes it inconvenient to search for the pirated material is out of the question, the publishers have a monopoly on the product and want to take the advantage of that situation. While arguments about the morality and legality of the pirating are a very effective forum tactics, they are totally ineffective solutions for the probem: the consumers of the pirated material have obviously crossed that line and are highly unlikely to come to Mobile Read to discuss their choices and be converted.

We are rapidly approaching the situation where the law is widely ignored and becoming impractical to enforce...

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by Ankh

The only practical solution, to offer books at a price that makes it inconvenient to search for the pirated material is out of the question, the publishers have a monopoly on the product and want to take the advantage of that situation. While arguments about the morality and legality of the pirating are a very effective forum tactics, they are totally ineffective solutions for the probem: the consumers of the pirated material have obviously crossed that line and are highly unlikely to come to Mobile Read to discuss their choices and be converted.

We are rapidly approaching the situation where the law is widely ignored and becoming impractical to enforce...

Absolutely. Add removal of DRM and abolishment of region distribution as well.

The onus is on the publishers to make the change to their business model, not force the consumer to adhere to such a business model, so plain a failure.

[greenapple]

Originally Posted by sabredog

Absolutely. Add removal of DRM and abolishment of region distribution as well.

The onus is on the publishers to make the change to their business model, not force the consumer to adhere to such a business model, so plain a failure.

I agree with this. Especially the part on regional restriction. I live in an area where I can't purchase ebooks from major online stores (including Amazon), due to regional restrictions. The only ebooks I could purchase are non-drmed ebooks from stores like fictionwise and baen.

[Kevin8or]

Originally Posted by greenapple

I agree with this. Especially the part on regional restriction. I live in an area where I can't purchase ebooks from major online stores (including Amazon), due to regional restrictions.

I think you can overcome geo-restrictions by using a proxy server. You shouldn't have to, of course, but you can. I don't know where to go for a free & secure proxy, but I think they're available. Maybe someone can offer a link.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by Kevin8or

I think you can overcome geo-restrictions by using a proxy server. You shouldn't have to, of course, but you can. I don't know where to go for a free & secure proxy, but I think they're available. Maybe someone can offer a link.

I do a similar thing.

But for most ebook buyers, such things are often beyond their ken. Thus it is easier often, to go looking for "alternative" sources.

That may not be the done thing to do, but it is the reality of things.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Ankh

These lawsuits are nothing more than the scare tactics, but I seriously doubt that they are effective. It has been tried before, and it did not help much. The only practical solution, to offer books at a price that makes it inconvenient to search for the pirated material is out of the question, the publishers have a monopoly on the product and want to take the advantage of that situation. While arguments about the morality and legality of the pirating are a very effective forum tactics, they are totally ineffective solutions for the probem: the consumers of the pirated material have obviously crossed that line and are highly unlikely to come to Mobile Read to discuss their choices and be converted.

We are rapidly approaching the situation where the law is widely ignored and becoming impractical to enforce...

Consumers of pirated books will not be convinced to buy at any reasonable price. They might perhaps at a ridiculously low 99 cents or something --- and understandably no publisher wants to sell for next to nothing. Nobody really cares about those pirates in the current situation until enforcement becomes easier. Pirates will always do their thing, they are not prospective customers.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Consumers of pirated books will not be convinced to buy at any reasonable price. ...

Pirates will always do their thing, they are not prospective customers.

I think you will find that the hard core pirates would not change but there are a lot of "casual" pirates that would. Those include legitimate purchasers of ebooks who cannot get an ebook in the format their ereader displays, are geographically restricted or find the price of ebooks expensive.

You cannot and should not make broad assumptions that ALL pirates will not change.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Ankh

We are rapidly approaching the situation where the law is widely ignored and becoming impractical to enforce...

I think we got there a long time ago. Using official entertainment industry and government figures, there's 7 million unauthorised downloaders in the UK. That's about 10% of the total population. But only 56% of the population has internet access, so that 7 million is more like 25% of the people with access.

[kennyc]

What is of note is that legal statements from judges that become law are called 'opinions' End of story.

Originally Posted by hidari

Actually Kennyc he does have a clue. Just because you disagree with him is not reason enough to say that he has no clue. Actually a rather weak retort from you considering most of your posts are not so caustic. Lots of people download books... legally and illegally...

Maybe you should say you do not have a clue about what law is as pertaining to copyright infringement.... That said I am sure most MR members have broken a few laws this week..Like Jaywalking, making an illegal U-turn... etc... Both of which could cause Death if done at the wrong time. Never heard of copyright infringement causing death...so Maybe we should all take a chill pill on the *evilness* of it all...

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by kennyc

What is of note is that legal statements from judges that become law are called 'opinions' End of story.

We had a judge once who said that women who wear skimpy clothing deserve to be raped. But that didn't make it into law.

[howyoudoin]

There was actually a story in the papers a few years back about a train that was delayed or something (don't remember what exactly). The would-be passengers got into an argument with the station master. Among the crowd was a judge, and he proceeded to declare court open right there on the platform, and sentence/penalise (I can't recall) the station master for his offence of attempting to defend the railways against an irate crowd.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Consumers of pirated books will not be convinced to buy at any reasonable price. They might perhaps at a ridiculously low 99 cents or something --- and understandably no publisher wants to sell for next to nothing. Nobody really cares about those pirates in the current situation until enforcement becomes easier. Pirates will always do their thing, they are not prospective customers.

I don't see a study on book pirating but:
Study finds pirates 10 times more likely to buy music
Study Casts Pirate Site Users in Good Light:

Users of pirate sites on average buy more media content than those who do not use such sites, according to the study, validating the position that many supporters of these sites take that most use it as a way to preview content before they actually purchase it.
They also apparently are much more avid moviegoers than the general public, even opting to go to the more expensive weekend showings, GfK found. Telepolis quotes a source from the firm saying "we didn't expect it," while also indicating the company that ordered the survey is now trying to bury it out of fear it may hurt the industry's argument against piracy.

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by kennyc

What is of note is that legal statements from judges that become law are called 'opinions' End of story.

Incorrect again.

Statements by judges that become law are, at that point, law. Until that point, they are opinion. That opinion can, and often is, considered precedent. Precedent is not law though.

But I tell you what, if you can link to any information showing a statement or opinion by a judge stating that copyright infringement is theft(not "like" theft, not "no different to theft", not "legally akin" to theft etc etc) and has resulted in laws being amended so as to legally classify copyright infringement as theft and has resulted in someone being charged with theft for copyright infringement, then I will gladly retract my position and publicly declare you are correct in every way.

[murraypaul]

There is also a big difference between decisions and conclusions of the judge that form part of the legal reasoning of the decision on the one hand; and simple commentary, or discussion of how the judge might have ruled if the facts were different, on the other. The latter, as not part of the ratio of the decision, are not binding.

[Ken Maltby]

Originally Posted by sabredog

I think you will find that the hard core pirates would not change but there are a lot of "casual" pirates that would. Those include legitimate purchasers of ebooks who cannot get an ebook in the format their ereader displays, are geographically restricted or find the price of ebooks expensive.

You cannot and should not make broad assumptions that ALL pirates will not change.

This post suggests that you have bought into the idea, presented by the
DRM proponents, that just removing the DRM is an act of "Casual Piracy".
Simple "format shifting" causes no lost sale. You would have to believe
that everyone should be required to buy a seprate copy for each device
they may want to read the ebook on. Either that, or they should not be
allowed to buy the ebook from a retailer that offers the book in a format
for a device that they do not own. In fact "format shifting" increases the
purchasing options, for ebooks.

Luck;
Ken