Two freebies at Baen

[Harlock415]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

I take your point, but the Islamophobes do not define Islam by what muslims actually believe. They define it by what they think Muslims ought to believe based on an extremely skewed reading of a selection of the source texts. When confronted with this discrepancy, the Islamophobes tend to adopt one of two tactics. The more paranoid adopt the stance that all of these moderate (or even liberal!) Muslims are simply being deceptive about what they really believe. The remainder simply dismiss the majority of muslims as having a real commitment to Islam. Ironically, this echoes the views of the jihadists themselves. The greates irony is that groups such as Alqaeda are not throwbacks to the 7th century; they are fundamentally postmodern in methodology and ideology. They do not adhere to the traditional readings of the classical texts but instead deconstruct them to support a militant ideology structured around a few key terms (jihad, tauheed, shirk, etc.).

I could not agree more. I know several muslims. A few devout, but most are pretty laid back on it. The only one I know that even prays 5 times a day is a recent convert. I know plenty of Jews who eat pork for instance. Anyway. Not sure if the Kratman books are my cup of tea, but since they are free I may give em a shot. But I'm no fan of didactic writing. i don't mind if you have a political point, even one that is extremely opposite my own liberal politics, but if you put it in a fiction book badly and heavy handedly written I get annoyed.

Originally Posted by Kevin8or

A great example is Terry Goodkind. I loved his first few novels, and although I've not abandoned him, his later novels sometimes seem to be written by someone else. It gets so bad that I sometimes skim ahead a few pages to get on with the actual story.

I found myself doing the exact same thing the last couple of books. Goodkind is a great example of what I was talking about. Fine, he's a fan of Ayn rand. I get that. But the repetition and didactic writing was getting to the point I did not even care about the main characters anymore and was more interested in the supporting ones.

Basically it comes down to if you can tell your story well.

I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but all of Bean's CD material is available online, of course with caveats that they would like you to purchase the books, but here is the link: http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/ There are some nice little treasures there, including all the Honor books, the entire Vorkosigan saga, which I already had print copies to except the last couple, and a few Mercedes Lackey books.

[emellaich]

Originally Posted by khalleron

The problem with the one Honor Harrington book I read was I kept scratching my head wondering why the author had made his protagonist a woman. Honor doesn't do (or think or feel) anything differently than your typical white male pulp protagonist, so why is she a she? Did they think it would attract more women readers? To tell the truth, I might have enjoyed the series if she'd been a he - I'm very fond of space opera and swashbucklers - but the cognitive dissonance made the book nearly unreadable.

So I go there for the Bujold and just ignore the other stuff.

I'm just curious, what traits are you looking for from your woman characters? My take is that from a personal perspective HH could be either male or female. Her traits seem to be more of a mixture of typical stereotypes. However, I'm not sure a future character has to follow today's stereotypes.

However, IMO her gender is most relevant from the point of view of her enemies. Many of the Grayson and Masada (?) factions are against her because of her gender. One of her political roles is to introduce more equal roles to those societies.

[TheLongshot]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

You follow up to the (much better) sequels?

His female counterpart is hysterical. The super-macho navy warriors blanche when they hear her say: "I'm bored!"
She's smarter, weirder, and hyperkinetic.
And always right.
Drives the old-school navy captain bonkers.
I like her kitty cat.
And the ship's encounter with the dreaded Anime Zone.

I haven't as of yet, but if it gets that silly, maybe I can take it in stride.

Originally Posted by Iphinome

I tried to read Cordelia's Honor and after 2 kindle sized pages I closed the file and went off on an epic rant at the person who recommended it to me. Purple prose much?

The wonderful thing about the Vorkosigan books is that it is never the same book twice. I'll agree with others that it does get better (tho I think Shards/Barryar is pretty darn good.) If you want to try again, pick up Warrior's Apprentice and get acquanted with Miles.

[Joykins]

Agreed, Shards is OK, Barrayar is much better, but it's the Miles of The Warrior's Apprentice that hooked me on the Vorkosigan books.

[Andanzas]

Is it important to read them in chronological order? Is The Warrior's Apprentice a good starting point?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Andanzas

Is it important to read them in chronological order? Is The Warrior's Apprentice a good starting point?

It isn't crucial. But it helps.
Warrior's Apprentice is a good starting point, yes.

The way it works is that Miles Vorksigan is the son of a *great* man. Who wants to be appreciated by somebody other than his parents. He goes to *extreme* lengths trying to get there, with mixed results, as his father's shadow is enormous. (And his efforts are occasionally self-defeating. In many ways Miles is not just his own worst enemy, he is also his only meaningful enemy.)

SHARDS OF HONOR + BARAYAR = CORDELIA'S HONOR is the story of the elder Vorkosigans up to Miles' birth.

Apprentice picks up with teenaged Miles' first *major* caper.

Each book in the series is pretty much unique and they take you through Miles' lives and careers (both plural, yes). You'll find capers, war stories, spy dramas, character studies, comedy, romance, detective mysteries, and lots of adventure and just plain good writing. Bujold doesn't repeat herself so there's no potboilers in the series; each book is unique and serves a specific purpose, has something to say.

The best way to deal with the series is as shareware: get the CRYOBURN promo CD from the Fifth Imperium. Read whichever and as many of the books you like. Then go out and buy whichever and as many of her books as you enjoy. And hope she keeps writing them.

(And I think I just talked myself into rereading the series. )

[jgaiser]

I think that reading Barrayar Is a good idea only because it gives you the back story of Miles disabilities.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by Andanzas

Is it important to read them in chronological order? Is The Warrior's Apprentice a good starting point?

Bujold didn't write them in chronological order - there's some debate among fans as to whether it's better to read them in internal chronological order or in order written.

Bujold's writing gets better as she goes along, so if you read them in internal chronology, be prepared for some bumpiness.

None of the books are bad, even the early ones are quite good, but raised expectations can sometimes be disappointed.

I generally start people with The Warrior's Apprentice, yes - it's a good introduction to Miles. If you find him interesting enough to continue, then all is well. If you don't, then the series is not for you, anyway.

I do want to point out that the Baen CD leaves out 'Memory', one of the really important Miles books, so you'll have to chase that one down on your own.

[Critteranne]

Originally Posted by khalleron

I do want to point out that the Baen CD leaves out 'Memory', one of the really important Miles books, so you'll have to chase that one down on your own.

IIRC Memory might have been on the CD but without a link. If so, a search will find it. Of course, I had already bought a copy of Memory before someone pointed that out.

[Apache]

The first Miles I ever read was Borders of Infinity. I was hooked.
Apache

[Joykins]

Yes, _The Warrior's Apprentice_ is an excellent starting point.

As to chronological order--most of the books stand on their own, but there is a story arc beginning with _Brothers in Arms_ and ending with _A Civil Campaign_ that I think helps to read in order. _Ethan of Athos_, _Cetaganda_, _The Vor Game_, and _Borders of Infinity_ can IMO be read at any point, because there are only glancing references to their content in other books. The last 2 books (_Diplomatic Immunity_ and _Cryoburn_) stand pretty well on their own, although backstory helps.

I hear the next book is going to feature Ivan and I can't freakin' wait.

[Joykins]

Originally Posted by Critteranne

IIRC Memory might have been on the CD but without a link. If so, a search will find it. Of course, I had already bought a copy of Memory before someone pointed that out.

No, it's not there. According to what I've read, I think on the Bujold fan list, the omission was a simple oversight.

[Critteranne]

Originally Posted by Joykins

No, it's not there. According to what I've read, I think on the Bujold fan list, the omission was a simple oversight.

Then it's a good thing I bought it.

Oh, maybe it was The Vorkosigan Companion that's on the CD but doesn't have a link? (Of course, I bought that one, too...)

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by TheLongshot

[GIANT SNIP] (I remember reading "Into The Looking Glass" and was amused by his Mary Sueish athletic conservative scientist ubermench main character.) [SNIP]

Perhaps you are unaware that the "Mary Sue-ish athletic conservative scientist ubermench main character" is a straight rip-off of the real-life characteristics of a fan John Ringo met shortly before he started work on the book. That fan is the co-author of books 2-N in that series. And is now an SF author in his own right. And is the star of the current TV series "Rocket City Rednecks" (now airing on the National Geographic Channel).

Yup. The main character of the Looking Glass series is a thinly disguised rip-off of Travis Taylor... Who has each and every one of the degrees claimed for the main character of Looking Glass. And the martial arts trophies. And the mountain biking trophies. And... (you get the idea).

I too was dubious, until I actually met the guy. He's every bit as disgustingly, depressingly smart, competent, and conservative as portrayed in the book. I'll bet he gets a real hoot out of writing further adventures of a character based on himself.


Xenophon

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Joykins

I hear the next book is going to feature Ivan and I can't freakin' wait.

Really?
Yay!

About freakin' time that "Ivan, you idiot!" got his due.
He really is a quick thinker (as evidenced in Cetaganda) and a lot savvier than he lets on (Civil Campaign). But given the company he keeps it is safer to keep his head down.
I was afraid she would transition straight to the Hellion and never give Ivan his moment to shine. Now if only she'll do an Ekaterin story, too. What she did to those poor terrorists...!

Now I'm definitely cycling through the series again.