Getting depressed

[Argel]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Although I don't know how amazon taking a loss is going to hurt the publishers or change their minds. Unless he figures the other ebook retailers that don't want to take a loss on these books will together put pressure on the publishers buy not selling these books, or whatever.

Amazon is all about market share. In an economy devoted to the quick return, Amazon had the courage to base their strategy on the long term. They have taken enormous flak from investors and commentators over their low margins and small profits. And each year their share of the market has grown because their stuff is cheaper and their service is better. Their profits are still pitiful for a concern of their size but who cares, they are gradually putting everyone else out of business.

I assume they will not change the business model for ebooks – in fact it works even better. They own the most popular format and their hardware standard will soon be the main game in town. So they have a few loss leaders. Who cares? We will all soon be locked into their format. Compared to the competition that Amazon have already trounced, the ebook retailers are extremely small beer.

It is the publishers who should worry. Ask yourself what would happen if Amazon set up their own publishing house and signed a basketful of the world’s top authors. Would anyone (in the real world) actually notice that Random House, for instance, had disappeared?

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Argel

Amazon is all about market share. In an economy devoted to the quick return, Amazon had the courage to base their strategy on the long term.

Well said, I agree with your analysis. Although what I don't understand is why buy Mobipocket and then turn around and create a close system that uses a different file format and delivery model? That just didn't make sense to me... unless they plan to shut down Mobipocket.

BOb

[Argel]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Well said, I agree with your analysis. Although what I don't understand is why buy Mobipocket and then turn around and create a close system that uses a different file format and delivery model? That just didn't make sense to me... unless they plan to shut down Mobipocket.BOb

I don’t see what the mystery is. In effect, Amazon control the independent hardware market by owning Mobisoft and insisting on exclusive DRM deals with new manufacturers. If you want protected Mobi books on your device – and of course you do – then sign here and agree not to use other protected formats. Meanwhile they’ll be competing with you in the hardware market, selling the same files slightly cheaper. Heads I win, tails you lose.

The only possible alternative route is if the publishers put their collective foot down and insisted on a single DRM standard to which all hardware had to conform. But they won’t do it and, in the not too distant future, the existing publishing houses will be irrelevant anyway. Who needs them in the age of print on demand (via Amazon) and self-publish ebooks (via guess who).

[bwaldron]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Well said, I agree with your analysis. Although what I don't understand is why buy Mobipocket and then turn around and create a close system that uses a different file format and delivery model? That just didn't make sense to me... unless they plan to shut down Mobipocket.

They want to sell the Kindle hardware. Standard Mobi books can also be read on PCs, PDAs, cell phones, Cybooks, etc.

They are still making money on Mobipocket for people outside the U.S. -- and those who prefer to read on a device other than the Kindle.

While if you are in the US they would prefer you buy a Kindle, they make some money either way.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by bwaldron

They want to sell the Kindle hardware. Standard Mobi books can also be read on PCs, PDAs, cell phones, Cybooks, etc.

I'd actually be MORE likley to buy a kindle if a "kindle" book was actually a Mobipocket book. I think the truth is the reverse... they wanted people that bought a Kindle to only buy kindle books. It is the back end book sales where they make thier money.

BOb

[Argel]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

I'd actually be MORE likley to buy a kindle if a "kindle" book was actually a Mobipocket book. I think the truth is the reverse... they wanted people that bought a Kindle to only buy kindle books. It is the back end book sales where they make thier money.

I think you're right on both counts but we also need to remember that they play the long game. The question is what happens two years down the line when you start looking for your next device.

For Kindle owners – or at least for those who are not techie and/or willing to break the law – the next generation Kindle will have a huge head-start because it will be the only device capable of reading their files. And the more Kindle-only files they persuade you to buy, the more you are tied in.

In the short term, provided they don’t make too much of a loss, they can be happy as long as the Kindle user-base is growing, because a high percentage of those users are likely to be Amazon customers for life.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Well said, I agree with your analysis. Although what I don't understand is why buy Mobipocket and then turn around and create a close system that uses a different file format and delivery model? That just didn't make sense to me... unless they plan to shut down Mobipocket.

BOb

Just a quick note that they HAVEN'T used a different file format - at least not for the overwhelming majority of Kindle books. It's just Mobi format with a "hidden" Mobi PID. That's why it's so easy to use Igorsk's Python script to "tweak" the header of any DRM-protected Mobi file so it'll run on the Kindle. They bought Mobi presumably so that they would have access to their DRM technology to use on the Kindle, and that's exactly what they've done.

There is a new file format called TOPAZ for the Kindle, but very, very few books use it. It supports font embedding, which Mobi books don't.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

I'd actually be MORE likley to buy a kindle if a "kindle" book was actually a Mobipocket book.

Er, it is.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Just a quick note that they HAVEN'T used a different file format - at least not for the overwhelming majority of Kindle books. It's just Mobi format with a "hidden" Mobi PID.

While that may be "technically" true... pratically it is not.

Practically:
1. You can NOT read a DRMed MobiPocket book on a Kindle
2. You can NOT read a Kindle book on any device but a Kindle.

Those are the practical facts for the majority of customers. Yes, for a SMALL SMALL number of users that want to dig in, hack, use converters you can possibly do number one (1) above.

BOb

[Argel]

Originally Posted by HarryT

They bought Mobi presumably so that they would have access to their DRM technology to use on the Kindle, and that's exactly what they've done.

Next to Google, Amazon probably have as much practical computing power and expertise as any commercial organization on planet Earth. The idea that they needed to buy a [then] miniscule concern like Mobipocket in order to own a form of DRM that their programmers could probably have surpassed in a long weekend's work is faintly amusing.

Amazon bought Mobi because it gave them the opportunity to take effective control of the independent hardware market. It was simply quicker and cheaper than establishing their own standard in the marketplace. It's the old Microsoft tactic – when you notice a marketplace you don't control, buy one of the players and use your strength to make it the market leader.

Having bought Mobi I presume there was no reason not to tweak it for use on the Kindle in the short term – after all they had a stock of 50,000 files ready to go in the format. But you can be sure that they will close the door finally on interoperability between Mobi and Kindle whenever it suits them.

The Kindle is meant to be a straightjacket – it's just that it's a more comfortable straightjacket than any of the others on sale.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

While that may be "technically" true... pratically it is not.

Practically:
1. You can NOT read a DRMed MobiPocket book on a Kindle
2. You can NOT read a Kindle book on any device but a Kindle.

Those are the practical facts for the majority of customers. Yes, for a SMALL SMALL number of users that want to dig in, hack, use converters you can possibly do number one (1) above.

BOb

OK, so you need to use a tool for DRM-protected books. But there are goodness knows how many DRM-free Mobi (and Kindle) books around, and these can be freely swapped between Kindle and Mobi devices. Kindle books ARE Mobi books.

[Argel]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But there are goodness knows how many DRM-free Mobi (and Kindle) books around, and these can be freely swapped between Kindle and Mobi devices. Kindle books ARE Mobi books.

Isn't that like going into a bookshop to be told 'We only sell out-of-copyright books but there are loads of them'?

Most of the books I really want are copyright and cannot be transferred. And I agree with Bob that the vast majority of users are not going to trawl the internet for [probably illegal] tools which appear and disappear like will-o-the-wisps.

Realistically, most people should not expect transfer between the two formats to be easy or even possible in the longer term.

[HarryT]

Igorsk's tool is not illegal - it's not a DRM circumvention tool. It allows you to buy any DRM-protected book in a Mobi store, using the perfectly legitimate Mobi PID that your Kindle has, and then makes a very minor "tweak" to the book's header to allow the Kindle to read it. Absolutely not illegal.

The tools you are referring to such a "MobiDeDRM" are absolutely illegal in most countries, and personally I wouldn't touch such tools with the proverbial barge-pole.

Again, there are not "two formats". Kindle books ARE Mobipocket books - full stop!

[Argel]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Again, there are not "two formats". Kindle books ARE Mobipocket books - full stop!

The fact that you keep saying it doesn't make it true.

I will happily accept your assertion when you post an official response from Amazon and Mobi confirming that altering the file is not a breach of the EULA and not regarded as circumventing the DRM (which is illegal).

But I won't be holding my breath...

[HarryT]

You don't have to take my word for it. Look at the file formats for yourself. Your carrying on saying that the formats are different equally "doesn't make it so".

Take any DRM-protected Kindle file. Rename it to ".prc" or ".mobi" and load it into MobiPocket Reader. What happens?

The results should be proof enough for anyone that it's a Mobi file.