New writer needs help on Fantasy novel (blacksmithing)

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by michaelryannh

The labor of a bladesmith was not an easy task, generally requiring the work of many specialists, but a simple blade as this could be done by one with dedication. Waylon had arrived long before sunrise this morning, as he always did, to ready the shop for its daily labor. This benefitted Eli greatly; his father had already prepared the forge for use. He squeezed on the bellows to force air into the forge, raising the heat of the coals. With the tongs, he grabbed a slab of the finest steel in Oakshire, placing it partly inside the forge. When the slab had finally molten, Eli began to flatten out the steel against the anvil, beginning the rough shape of his creation. Continuing this routine until lunchtime, Eli was so absorbed in the process that he did not hear the bang of the shop’s door behind him.

I could be wrong, but I think it's iron until you put it in the water. Also it wouldn't be molten, that would mean it had turned into liquid.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

I could be wrong, but I think it's iron until you put it in the water. Also it wouldn't be molten, that would mean it had turned into liquid.

No, it's the carbon from the furnace that turns iron into steel. Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon.

[michaelryannh]

Harry, no. I have never seen a blacksmith in action. When I arrived at this part in my book I was stunned at the pure lack of knowledge I had on this subject.

Mr ploppy, I decided to keep it simple in that matter where the steel had already been made by them so I wouldn't have to describe the process of turning iron into steel. But thank you for bringing my attention to the word molten. It was a word my father suggested, I assume without knowing what it meant, and I quickly jotted it in there because I was very tired lol.

[ScalyFreak]

Here you go.

[michaelryannh]

Thank you scaly, I am browsing through that article now.

Since the fade out, I haven't done any more of the bladesmithing in my writing. But the remaining works is really just a quick, simple description of him working day to day on it until he is finally done and the traveler comes back for the sword. Maybe a quick description of adding a simple wooden hilt. Nothing more.

As for the molten issue, I simply changed it to "almost to a molten state, giving the steel the malleability needed to forge". Hoping this will be better, as I said, my knowledge is limited.

[kennyc]

How about just 'malleable' instead of molten.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by michaelryannh

I will definitely check out the series. as for charcoal, the reason it was omitted was because they are a bit of a rarity blacksmith.. Their village is in the middle of a forest.. Would it be possible to have a wooden forge? Coals referred to just coals instead of charcoals which I'm not sure they would have great access to except from maybe traders.

It is exactly for a village in the middle of a forest that charcoal is appropriate. That is why you need to acquaint yourself with charcoal so you understand that. You need to do the research so that you have a feel for it.

Charcoal, which was made from wood, was used for achieving higher temperatures which were used for ceramics as well as for metal forging.

Charcoal is also used for cooking and is light and portable which is necessary for a mobile vendor, and one reason why Haiti has little forest. - just an example.

Remember writing isn't just the art of putting words together that please a reader, it is also the job of understanding what those words mean. That requires research if you don't already have the information.

[michaelryannh]

Originally Posted by frahse

It is exactly for a village in the middle of a forest that charcoal is appropriate. That is why you need to acquaint yourself with charcoal so you understand that. You need to do the research so that you have a feel for it.

Charcoal, which was made from wood, was used for achieving higher temperatures which were used for ceramics as well as for metal forging.

Charcoal is also used for cooking and is light and portable which is necessary for a mobile vendor, and one reason why Haiti has little forest. - just an example.

Remember writing isn't just the art of putting words together that please a reader, it is also the job of understanding what those words mean. That requires research if you don't already have the information.

I am aware that writing does require the research, and I am not straying from this responsibility, hence the starting of this thread. Thank you for the vivid beginner's explanation to charcoal, I will look into this even further on my own, but it was nice to have your insight on it, especially about the relation to the village in the middle of a forest.

Kennyc, it does seem to make more sense to change it to just malleable, gives more clarity to what I mean, not sure why I didn't think of it beforehand.

Thank you to all that have replied to this thread, I'm glad I started it. The help of all of you has been very welcoming to a person who generally stays away from even creating an account on forums, for fear of flaming and troll-wars.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Huh? Haven't you ever seen a blacksmith at work? A traditional blacksmith's forge has a fire with air forced through it with bellows, which were traditionally made from leather.

... and operated by blacksmith's son or apprentice. This was the main responsibility of the lowest ranking apprentice. So you have to go back and make this the main labour for the son ;-)

In the good old times they used "forged steel". Forged steel isn't simply a piece of steel that you put into forge and than hit with a hammer on an anvil. Back then they weren't able to achieve temperatures high enough to actually melt the metal. So they produced "blooms" - chunks of raw iron - from primitive kilns and what they got was sponge-like material with high content of iron and lots of impurities (mostly slag). To get material good enough to make a sword they had to heat the material in a forge repeatedly and hit it with hammer again and again and again and again. This forging forced [most of] the slag out of metal and you achieved fine structure. Fine structure is really important for strength, because it prevents microscopic fractures from spreading through material.

If you want your smith to produce really, *really* fancy sword (today monetary equivalent of fancy car), let him make one of "damascene" or "damascus" steel. The process of making this steel was very closely guarded secret (and as it turned out recently, it required iron from a specific place in India(*)). So other manufacturers cheated. They took two bars of different material, hard and soft, forged them together, then forged and folded then many times, then twisted the resulting long bar and forged it again. The result was very specific structure that was very strong (not as strong as genuine damascus steel) and had very specific look. To get this look you had to grind the sword, then polish it and then etch it with acid.
Look here for modern approximation http://www.mikov.cz/en/produkty/miko...-predator.html

See this nice page
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/ama...ed/t5_1_1.html


(*) at the very beginning of iron age India was producing most of the iron / steel in the world. So called wootz steel was very famous in its time.

I have a nice e-book about Damascus steel somewhere ... I will try to find it. In the meanwhile have a look at http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/ama.../key_role.html

[michaelryannh]

Originally Posted by kacir

... and operated by blacksmith's son or apprentice. This was the main responsibility of the lowest ranking apprentice. So you have to go back and make this the main labour for the son ;-)

In the good old times they used "forged steel". Forged steel isn't simply a piece of steel that you put into forge and than hit with a hammer on an anvil. Back then they weren't able to achieve temperatures high enough to actually melt the metal. So they produced "blooms" - chunks of raw iron - from primitive kilns and what they got was sponge-like material with high content of iron and lots of impurities (mostly slag). To get material good enough to make a sword they had to heat the material in a forge repeatedly and hit it with hammer again and again and again and again. This forging forced [most of] the slag out of metal and you achieved fine structure. Fine structure is really important for strength, because it prevents microscopic fractures from spreading through material.

If you want your smith to produce really, *really* fancy sword (today monetary equivalent of fancy car), let him make one of "damascene" or "damascus" steel. The process of making this steel was very closely guarded secret (and as it turned out recently, it required iron from a specific place in India(*)). So other manufacturers cheated. They took two bars of different material, hard and soft, forged them together, then forged and folded then many times, then twisted the resulting long bar and forged it again. The result was very specific structure that was very strong (not as strong as genuine damascus steel) and had very specific look. To get this look you had to grind the sword, then polish it and then etch it with acid.
Look here for modern approximation http://www.mikov.cz/en/produkty/miko...-predator.html

See this nice page
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/ama...ed/t5_1_1.html


(*) at the very beginning of iron age India was producing most of the iron / steel in the world. So called wootz steel was very famous in its time.

I have a nice e-book about Damascus steel somewhere ... I will try to find it. In the meanwhile have a look at http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/ama.../key_role.html

Maybe I need to clarify more in my book, but the main character is not exactly an apprentice anymore. He has grown of age to where he is considered as equal to his father in the smithy shop.

As for all the links, thank you. I will have to pilfer through these along with the many other links.

And as for the damascus, I am trying to keep this a very simple blade so while the idea of it is tempting, I feel I should not try to write anymore than I have to.

I will keep all this information in mind when I go back to edit the novel. As of now, I have continued on the story with the basic scene I wrote to try to at least finish the chapter lest I get stuck on that scene for too long.

[Keryl Raist]

Here's some help: http://youtu.be/gLlObpob6lg

Also, go to youtube and search blacksmithing, metal working, how to make charcoal, how to build a forge. A lot of this will make more sense if you watch people do it.

Researching on how apprenticeships worked is probably a good idea as well. You don't just grow out of an apprenticeship. You have to complete years (usually seven) of training. Then you become a journeyman. This is where you're sort of like the second in command of the shop. That's the point where you work on and produce your masterpiece. Once that's been successfully completed and judged appropriate the title of master will be conveyed, and in many areas that's the point where you're finally allowed to open your own shop.

Or, skip the whole blacksmithing thing all together and write the sorts of things you do know about. Nothing will toss a fantasy fan out of the story faster than an author who muffs the details of a fairly common medieval technology.

I know if I ran into a 'wood forge' I'd be very annoyed and stop reading. Charcoal burns much hotter than wood, which is necessary to get to the temperatures you need to work metal. Plus it's vital to making steel, which your sword should be. And, assuming your characters father has the skill to make a sword, he has the skill to make charcoal. It's not hard to do.

Likewise, you only want molten metal if you are going to be casting with it.

Also, if your blacksmith is in the middle of the forest, where is he getting his ore from? Iron ore is very heavy, so it's usually only worked in places where there's a very good transportation net available. Is the forge right next to a river in the forest? Is the forest at the base of a mountain where people are mining?

Keep things like that in mind when you're writing. While it's true that most readers have little desire to have an entire socio-economic history portrayed in your book, your set up will work a lot better if it's not just a smithy in the middle of the deep forest away from everyone else.

[michaelryannh]

Originally Posted by Keryl Raist

Here's some help: http://youtu.be/gLlObpob6lg

Also, go to youtube and search blacksmithing, metal working, how to make charcoal, how to build a forge. A lot of this will make more sense if you watch people do it.

Researching on how apprenticeships worked is probably a good idea as well. You don't just grow out of an apprenticeship. You have to complete years (usually seven) of training. Then you become a journeyman. This is where you're sort of like the second in command of the shop. That's the point where you work on and produce your masterpiece. Once that's been successfully completed and judged appropriate the title of master will be conveyed, and in many areas that's the point where you're finally allowed to open your own shop.

Or, skip the whole blacksmithing thing all together and write the sorts of things you do know about. Nothing will toss a fantasy fan out of the story faster than an author who muffs the details of a fairly common medieval technology.

I know if I ran into a 'wood forge' I'd be very annoyed and stop reading. Charcoal burns much hotter than wood, which is necessary to get to the temperatures you need to work metal. Plus it's vital to making steel, which your sword should be. And, assuming your characters father has the skill to make a sword, he has the skill to make charcoal. It's not hard to do.

Likewise, you only want molten metal if you are going to be casting with it.

Also, if your blacksmith is in the middle of the forest, where is he getting his ore from? Iron ore is very heavy, so it's usually only worked in places where there's a very good transportation net available. Is the forge right next to a river in the forest? Is the forest at the base of a mountain where people are mining?

Keep things like that in mind when you're writing. While it's true that most readers have little desire to have an entire socio-economic history portrayed in your book, your set up will work a lot better if it's not just a smithy in the middle of the deep forest away from everyone else.

I have to admit, the video was VERY interesting. I even went so far as the find the part two at the end, and continued to watch that as well.

As far as the apprentice to master goes, I would probably consider my character to be a journeyman. He has been under his father's training from a young age (He is 22 now, Started around the age of 15-16.) As you have said, I do not want to muff the entire book based on my lack of knowledge so I have decided to stick with pure basics. Such as him basically finding the forged steel, placing it in the forge, it becoming a malleable substance to work with, drawing it out to make a rough shape, then it pretty much fades out to where he is interrupted by his future wife coming through the door.

As for as coming back to it, i have decided to use a vague fade out to pass the time ahead a month or so, (This should be enough time to make a very simple steel blade, I believe.)

*I am aware there is a lot of fade outs, but the beginning is not very essential to the development of the story. He only needs to be a blacksmith, with a passion in swords to recognize the fine craftmanship behind the sword he finds later on in the book. Also, coming back to the journeyman to master apprenticeship, the main character eventually leaves everything behind for reasons I do not feel comfortable to divulge as of the moment.*

As for the village in the middle of the forest area, I apologize for not giving more information on this beforehand, I did not think it would come up in the topic anywhere. The world I have created does have large boats for trading/ sometimes ferrying people across the entire region. (Also, essential to the overall plot.) The main characters supplies are limited because of this, but he does have enough for the creation of the sword, and various other metalworkings needed around the village. Also, he is paid a significant amount of gold for this sword (Haven't decided exactly how much gold is a lot of gold in this world), so he is not worried about using his finest forged steel for this travelers blade.

I, for one, am one of the readers tired of the fantasy worlds I am reading about bombarding me with attacks of the social economy, overdescription of the characters, and such while I am attempting to re-learn the fantasy worlds I try to immerse myself in. I would consider my writing style very different, describing my characters only somewhat, leaving the imagination of the rest to the reader's own mind. I am trying to keep it fairly simple, yet still not a young adults or children's book. The characters are more defined by the actions they take and the choices they make, rather than what I narrate to you. I am hoping that this method takes off fairly well in my readers, but if it doesn't.. It's only my first novel, I can always try again. Coming back to my main point though, I only want a general understanding of the way the swords are made, for I am not trying to give a history lesson to my readers, I only want them to become as lost in the passion of making the sword as the main character becomes.


WOW. This was almost an essay I've written here. If only I could write my novel as fast as this . I'd be able to release it within the next month!

Thank you for the interesting videos, and links. They did help me a lot. Expect some karma coming your way =D.

[HarryT]

This article about how the apprenticeship system worked may be of interest:

http://historymedren.about.com/od/me...ld_learn_3.htm

[Keryl Raist]

Originally Posted by michaelryannh

I have to admit, the video was VERY interesting. I even went so far as the find the part two at the end, and continued to watch that as well.

As far as the apprentice to master goes, I would probably consider my character to be a journeyman. He has been under his father's training from a young age (He is 22 now, Started around the age of 15-16.) As you have said, I do not want to muff the entire book based on my lack of knowledge so I have decided to stick with pure basics. Such as him basically finding the forged steel, placing it in the forge, it becoming a malleable substance to work with, drawing it out to make a rough shape, then it pretty much fades out to where he is interrupted by his future wife coming through the door.

As for as coming back to it, i have decided to use a vague fade out to pass the time ahead a month or so, (This should be enough time to make a very simple steel blade, I believe.)

*I am aware there is a lot of fade outs, but the beginning is not very essential to the development of the story. He only needs to be a blacksmith, with a passion in swords to recognize the fine craftmanship behind the sword he finds later on in the book. Also, coming back to the journeyman to master apprenticeship, the main character eventually leaves everything behind for reasons I do not feel comfortable to divulge as of the moment.*

As for the village in the middle of the forest area, I apologize for not giving more information on this beforehand, I did not think it would come up in the topic anywhere. The world I have created does have large boats for trading/ sometimes ferrying people across the entire region. (Also, essential to the overall plot.) The main characters supplies are limited because of this, but he does have enough for the creation of the sword, and various other metalworkings needed around the village. Also, he is paid a significant amount of gold for this sword (Haven't decided exactly how much gold is a lot of gold in this world), so he is not worried about using his finest forged steel for this travelers blade.

I, for one, am one of the readers tired of the fantasy worlds I am reading about bombarding me with attacks of the social economy, overdescription of the characters, and such while I am attempting to re-learn the fantasy worlds I try to immerse myself in. I would consider my writing style very different, describing my characters only somewhat, leaving the imagination of the rest to the reader's own mind. I am trying to keep it fairly simple, yet still not a young adults or children's book. The characters are more defined by the actions they take and the choices they make, rather than what I narrate to you. I am hoping that this method takes off fairly well in my readers, but if it doesn't.. It's only my first novel, I can always try again. Coming back to my main point though, I only want a general understanding of the way the swords are made, for I am not trying to give a history lesson to my readers, I only want them to become as lost in the passion of making the sword as the main character becomes.


WOW. This was almost an essay I've written here. If only I could write my novel as fast as this . I'd be able to release it within the next month!

Thank you for the interesting videos, and links. They did help me a lot. Expect some karma coming your way =D.

Thanks for the Karma.

Youtube is a really useful place to watch people do almost anything. I've learned how to make soap, a sword, butcher a cow, do a smokey eye, build a heddle loom, paint faux finishes, and spin yarn from youtube.

It's the first place I go know when I look for how to do something esoteric because there's probably someone else out there who's doing it and making videos about it.

I also wish I could write fiction as fast as I could respond to posts as well. (Okay, I can write fiction this fast. I just can't write good fiction this fast.)

Good luck with the story. Can't wait to see how it works out.

[michaelryannh]

Originally Posted by Keryl Raist

Thanks for the Karma.

Youtube is a really useful place to watch people do almost anything. I've learned how to make soap, a sword, butcher a cow, do a smokey eye, build a heddle loom, paint faux finishes, and spin yarn from youtube.

It's the first place I go know when I look for how to do something esoteric because there's probably someone else out there who's doing it and making videos about it.

I also wish I could write fiction as fast as I could respond to posts as well. (Okay, I can write fiction this fast. I just can't write good fiction this fast.)

Good luck with the story. Can't wait to see how it works out.

YouTube is very interesting for random how tos! although I can't say I would look up how to butcher a cow.. I currently work in a high sales meat department.. So I've seen plenty of butchered cows chickens pigs and even oxes