Wil Wheaton, his eReader and flying

[toddos]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

... it is possible.

What is possible? It's possible that the plane's in-flight wifi is misconfigured and causes problems. It's not possible that a passenger's kindle or iphone can trigger the problem. You may as well tell people to turn off their kindles because if they don't the wings might fall off the plane, because the chance that a kindle could cause the wings to fall off is exactly the same chance that a kindle could trigger this potential wifi scenario -- that is, there's 0 chance either could be caused by a kindle being used by a passenger. Both require failure on the part of the plane's maintenance crew, neither of which can be affected by any individual passenger.

[Pinecone]

Originally Posted by toddos

Context is everything. Quotes from the article:



and



So this is a problem with wifi delivery systems (aka, "in-flight wifi"), not wifi devices that just happen to have their radios on, and does not happen at normal operating levels. There's nothing a passenger can do to cause or stop this. It can only happen if the in-flight wifi is misconfigured and then turned on.

Or in other words, it's a red herring.

So what happens when you have 300 wifi devices on at once? Inside a Faraday cage? Why is "wifi" delivery worse? Does it run at higher power?

[toddos]

Originally Posted by Pinecone

So what happens when you have 300 wifi devices on at once? Inside a Faraday cage? Why is "wifi" delivery worse? Does it run at higher power?

What does it matter if they're inside a Faraday cage? Also, airplanes are definitely not Faraday cages, or you'd not be able to use your cell phone in the plane prior to takeoff or after landing.

Also, you need to understand how wifi works. Devices generally don't send out signals unless there's a wifi access point they can connect to. If there's no access point (no in-flight wifi), the devices are passive in terms of radio emissions (they'll still chew up battery looking for wifi signals if you don't put them in airplane mode, of course). Access points with SSID enabled are constantly broadcasting, but as the article said that's only an issue if the access points are misconfigured. One would expect that would not be the case, but if it is there's nothing a passenger can do about it.

When in-flight wifi is turned on and devices are accessing it, the radio emissions don't stack. That is, two devices communicating with an access point do not generate twice as powerful radio emissions as one device communicating with an access point. The problem here apparently has to do with the strength of the signals, not the number of individual signals.

You have to read more of the article than just the headline. In this case, the only known issue with wireless communications interfering with aircraft systems is out of the hands of passengers. While it's theoretically possible that a passenger could bring on a rogue device that intentionally mimics a misconfigured inflight wifi system, or a rogue passenger somehow successfully hacks into the inflight wifi and configures it to cause problems, that's highly unlikely. You can't do this on accident, and any passenger who would do this on purpose isn't going to pay attention to the "please turn off all electronics" requests.

[Jhary]

Originally Posted by toddos

What does it matter if they're inside a Faraday cage? Also, airplanes are definitely not Faraday cages, or you'd not be able to use your cell phone in the plane prior to takeoff or after landing.
.

Äh Sorry but you are wrong or does in youre car block youre cellphone? and youre car is a Faraday cage!

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by Jhary

Äh Sorry but you are wrong or does in youre car block youre cellphone? and youre car is a Faraday cage!

Not unless the windows are metal tinted. Also cars with fiberglass bodies don't even com close.

GPS works inside airplanes. That will not happen in a Faraday cage.

Airplanes and cars can only be Faraday cages for wavelengths large compared to any openings.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by Jhary

Äh Sorry but you are wrong or does in youre car block youre cellphone? and youre car is a Faraday cage!

What j.p.s said. While airplanes and cars may be Faraday cages from some specific set of frequencies (and only incidentally, because neither are designed to specifically be Faraday cages, they just end up that way because they're spaces enclosed in metal), they're not Faraday cages when it comes to wireless signals. Since that's what we've been discussing, why even bring it up? It's irrelevant.

[vxf]

I know I posted about this once before - but it's been two years, and I am still pissed. On an Alitalia NYC-Venice flight, I was not allowed to use my ebook reader FOR THE ENTIRE FLIGHT because it was not on the list of approved devices.

In defense of the company, I have been on tons of their flight and it is not, apparently, their policy - this was just one idiotic crew (not one single idiot, however - I spoke to multiple flight attendants during that LONG flight and they all agreed - not specifically approved meant 'banned').

[Jhary]

To the problems with Fligth Crews. On an Transafrica flight they forbid me to switch my GPS on. Half an Hour Later the flight captain asked me if i coud lend them me GPS because they had an Instrumental problem. So mutch for Crew and Knowlegde they where even start a riot because the manual for the gps was on me reader.

For faraday question a farraday have not to be out of Metal. Just painted with minerals coud be enought

[Pinecone]

Originally Posted by toddos

What does it matter if they're inside a Faraday cage? Also, airplanes are definitely not Faraday cages, or you'd not be able to use your cell phone in the plane prior to takeoff or after landing.

Also, you need to understand how wifi works. Devices generally don't send out signals unless there's a wifi access point they can connect to. If there's no access point (no in-flight wifi), the devices are passive in terms of radio emissions (they'll still chew up battery looking for wifi signals if you don't put them in airplane mode, of course). Access points with SSID enabled are constantly broadcasting, but as the article said that's only an issue if the access points are misconfigured. One would expect that would not be the case, but if it is there's nothing a passenger can do about it.

When in-flight wifi is turned on and devices are accessing it, the radio emissions don't stack. That is, two devices communicating with an access point do not generate twice as powerful radio emissions as one device communicating with an access point. The problem here apparently has to do with the strength of the signals, not the number of individual signals.

You have to read more of the article than just the headline. In this case, the only known issue with wireless communications interfering with aircraft systems is out of the hands of passengers. While it's theoretically possible that a passenger could bring on a rogue device that intentionally mimics a misconfigured inflight wifi system, or a rogue passenger somehow successfully hacks into the inflight wifi and configures it to cause problems, that's highly unlikely. You can't do this on accident, and any passenger who would do this on purpose isn't going to pay attention to the "please turn off all electronics" requests.

How much testing have you done with 300 wifi devices on an airplane?

And a number of wifi devices do broadcast or act at access points. Just sit in the terminal and search for wifi points and see what you find. And Blue Tooth.

The point is, there is no way to test ALL the various combinations of devices, including cell phones and similar (CDMA, 3 bands of GSM, Edge, 3G and 4G) to make sure there are no problems.

A few are surely safe, but NO one knows if more can be a problem. And do you want to be on the airplane, in flight, that is the test case?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

... it is possible.

Yes, it is possible a meteor could enter the Earth's atmosphere, plunge through the stratosphere, break into two parts and de-wing the plane.

...it is possible.

or godzilla could rise up out of the ocean and flame-breath it -- roasting the passengers into tasty morsels.

...it is possible.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by Pinecone

A few are surely safe, but NO one knows if more can be a problem. And do you want to be on the airplane, in flight, that is the test case?

You realize that scenario is put to test multiple times per day at every airport in the world, right? Maybe you turn your devices off or put them into airplane mode, but most people just turn off the screen to placate the flight attendants.

If cell phones, wifi devices, and even personal hotspots could crash a plane, we'd have heard about it years and years and years ago.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by toddos

You realize that scenario is put to test multiple times per day at every airport in the world, right? Maybe you turn your devices off or put them into airplane mode, but most people just turn off the screen to placate the flight attendants.

Cite?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Cite?

Common sense and observation.

[John F]

Originally Posted by toddos

...

If cell phones, wifi devices, and even personal hotspots could crash a plane, we'd have heard about it years and years and years ago.

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Cite?

Originally Posted by kennyc

Common sense and observation.

My common sense and observation differ from yours Kenny. I don't think personal hot spots have been around for "years and years" (I could be wrong). Let alone, I'm sure many people do follow the rules and turn them off (I could be wrong). So I'm not sure how it follows that we would have heard about problems years and years ago.

Just my non-technical opinion.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by John F

My common sense and observation differ from yours Kenny. I don't think personal hot spots have been around for "years and years" (I could be wrong). Let alone, I'm sure many people do follow the rules and turn them off (I could be wrong). So I'm not sure how it follows that we would have heard about problems years and years ago.

Just my non-technical opinion.

Exactly and I'm an Electrical Engineer and Amateur Radio Operator who has followed this matter for at least 30 years.