DRM Handcuffs

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I cannot help but wonder where DRM has stopped anyone from reading. The entitlement to copy and/or redistribute a pbook has never been a hot issue.

I have never bought a book where the main purpose was to be able to lend it or resell it. I have done both, but I bought it because I wanted to read the book.

Now it is all about resales. People who loudly admit to stripping drm are constantly whining because they have to. Not too long ago one would have had to spend a long time at a photocopier to copy a book and some now feel it is their inalienable right to do this in in under 10 seconds?

Copying an ebook is usually violating the contract under which it was sold. Whining about doing this the hard way is like robbers snivelling that they have to go a bank or convenience store and show them a gun.

Helen

We are not whining, we are telling the publishers that they are greatly inconveniencing their best customers and are not really doing anything to prevent file sharers from putting their books up on torrent sites.

I can give you some easy examples. I cannot read my Kindle books on my Irex reader and I cannot read any DRM infested epub books on my Touchpad at all. So I remove the DRM and whatever you or Stonetool say, I don't feel that makes me the same as a bank robber. I definitely don't redistribute the files.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by stonetools

(Shrug)

I don't know and I don't intend to find out. I also think that NOBODY should be going around urging people to remove DRM unless they are 100 per cent sure that there will be no legal liability. That's just me, though.

Ah but you are forgetting about a little thing called 'free will.' I could suggest to my neighbor across the hall that he should rob a bank, but I can't compel him to actually do so. If he did so it would be of his own will. Likewise someone here could suggest that a fellow forum member strip the DRM from books that they have purchased but no one here can walk up to another forum member and say, "you are going to do this because I say so." You can't be legally held responsible for the actual actions of another (as far as I know) unless perhaps you are acting as their legal guardian in some sense. I mean if someone is mentally handicapped in such a way that they are a danger to others and you just let them run wild and do as they wish knowing that they are a danger then you would be liable for whatever they did (assuming you are supposed to be keeping them out of trouble) but generally most people are responsible for their own actions. And I can't see myself what Amazon's beef would be if I were to strip the DRM from books that I have purchased as long as I'm not reloading them to the net and giving them to others. When I go into a store they have security devices that keep you from walking off with things like CD's and DVD's without paying for them, but they are deactivated before you leave the store because ownership has transferred from the store to you the buyer. You can't get the whole of a book from Amazon unless you buy it. Short of buying it all you can get is a sample of the text, so what use is DRM as it stands? I've seen other threads where the idea of DRM being a watermark that identifies a given copy of a book as being owned by a given person has been talked of. If anything DRM should be used that way, not to keep people who have legally purchased a book from using it as they will.

[speakingtohe]

Because most of the books I want are not being sold in DRM-free versions.

Well of course if you only want a very few certain books and you cannot buy them in any form but DRMed ebooks with no pbook alternatives, than I can understand your problem.

One assumes that these books are controversial in topic and your freedom to read them is being prohibited. Kind of like living in a third world country with extreme censorship.

Helen

[crich70]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I may sometimes paint with too broad a brush, but I think this is the impression created. For the record, I did address the individuals challenging my position, and I do think that expressing a contrary opinion might just be helpful in making the newbies, as you call them, come to an informed opinion on the issue. I think that dissent, even strongly worded dissent, is good. I hope you agree .

I can see your point there. Democracy isn't the state of being allowed to agree with others about a given topic but rather the state of being allowed to disagree with them. For example I may think that Pres. Obama is doing a fine job and another person may think he's the worst Pres. in the history of the country and both viewpoints are valid because we do live in a Democracy where each is entitled to express his/her own views rather than having to agree with the majority on whatever they think.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Well of course if you only want a very few certain books and you cannot buy them in any form but DRMed ebooks with no pbook alternatives, than I can understand your problem.

One assumes that these books are controversial in topic and your freedom to read them is being prohibited. Kind of like living in a third world country with extreme censorship.

Helen

Where I live very few English language books are being sold, yes. It is not a matter of censorship, but because this is not an English speaking country. And, if I can avoid it all, I don't buy pbooks. We would buy Chinese ebooks, too if they were widely available. The only exceptions are books with beautiful photographs, maps, drawings, etc.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by crich70

Ah but you are forgetting about a little thing called 'free will.'

And you are forgetting about a little legal principle of "incitement". Which I'm somewhat surprised to find has (in the UK) now been replaced by offences of "encouraging or assisting".

[xg4bx]

if drm were totally eliminated tomorrow, the vast majority of people are still far too honest to immediately jump in and pirate TBs worth of ebooks. it just wouldn't happen. what these things do is treat everyone like scum and assume you're going to pirate the bejeezus out of something as quickly as your fingers allow you to. hell i could go online right this second and pirate any cd or dvd i want. i don't though because i'm generally honest and would rather go without than steal.

drm is a huge argument in the video game world now. many pc and console games are requiring a persistant online connection as a form of drm in order to play them. say your internet goes out, you're stuck with a $60 coaster until it comes back on. you cannot use the item you just paid for and legally own. its like not being able to use your tv if you don't pay your cable bill. or if your ereader required a constant online connection and you can't use it if your internet is down.

of course pirates have the drm cracked within minutes, often before the game is officially released and they're happily playing while legitimate consumers are stuck either twiddling their thumbs or they "go underground" and become part of the problem.

there have always been pirates. there will always be pirates. the industries themselves probably drive more people to piracy than anything else.

[EowynCarter]

I cannot help but wonder where DRM has stopped anyone from reading. The entitlement to copy and/or redistribute a pbook has never been a hot issue

.
There are some books the I found myself unable to read due to some silly mistake with ADE. I downloaded the book forgetting I hadn't authorized ade to my adobe ID when installing it.
The book got authorized to some crappy temporary user instead of my adobe id. Too bad, that also make sure inept couldn't decrypt the file.
I did the second silly mistake then, authorizing ADE, destroying the temporary key, and all hopes to read the file or get rid of the DRM.
DRM definitively prevented me from reading these books, I had to buy them again

DRM are lines of codes. As with all line of code, they are buggy, and will sometimes block the legitimate user.
And I want to read my books even when ade's server will no longer be there.

Then there is reading your books on platforms not supporting drm (Hello linux !)

[Ron.]

I have had books refuse to open on my kindle because something went wrong with the DRM, it will say can not open please download again etc... sometimes on a second try it opens sometimes not. after encountering that problem often enough you get fed up with it and by default remove the DRM from any purchases. not to mention i started with a kindle and now read on a nook.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by stonetools

...I think that dissent, even strongly worded dissent, is good. I hope you agree .

So then please support the dissent against DRM which is not only a stupid idea, but one that has NEVER worked in the past.

[booklover6]

Originally Posted by OtterBooks

The only reason I would remove drm is so I can adjust indent and paragraph spacing after I buy a book. Hypothetically.

I had to do that on a book I bought from Amazon yesterday. The formatting was ugly! Fortunately, I could fix it

[Graham Coulson]

Originally Posted by kennyc

So then please support the dissent against DRM which is not only a stupid idea, but one that has NEVER worked in the past.

How ???

[carld]

Originally Posted by Ron.

I have had books refuse to open on my kindle because something went wrong with the DRM, it will say can not open please download again etc...

Interesting. I can honestly say I've never seen that happen in several hundred purchases.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I think that dissent, even strongly worded dissent, is good. I hope you agree.

Of course I agree. I only disagreed to your generalizing and stereotyping of the entire MobileRead membership based on one vocal faction (even if it's a majority). This very thread proves that your paintbrush is splashing members who don't hold the ideals that you've so ignorantly attributed to 100% of them.

So dissent away. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that the entire MobileRead membership wears the same black hats that your delusional crusade seems to require them to.

[Ron.]

Originally Posted by carld

Interesting. I can honestly say I've never seen that happen in several hundred purchases.

I have had it happen maybe 3 or 4 times, once when I was not in range of any wireless and could not re-download it again. I admit its very rare, but why deal with that if I don't have too.