In Defense of English - Page 15

WT Sharpe · 09-19-2011, 12:23 AM

And another thread rises from the grave. But it's a good one.

Billi · 09-19-2011, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

English has a far larger vocabulary than pretty much any other language in the world. Eg, French is estimated, according to an article I read recently, to have about 120,000 "root" words; German has about 150,000. English, by comparison, has at least 750,000.

Is this really true? Okay, this "recently" is now more than two years ago so that you most probably don't have this article at hand any longer.

But English has quite the opposite reputation: it is said to be one of the most economic languages in the world as it has - comparably - few grammar rules and also uses only - relatively - few words as many of its words have many (different) meanings. I would have thought that e.g. French and German had far more words.

TGS · 09-19-2011, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billi

But English has quite the opposite reputation: it is said to be one of the most economic languages in the world as it has - comparably - few grammar rules and also uses only - relatively - few words as many of its words have many (different) meanings. I would have thought that e.g. French and German had far more words.

There is a general rule in languages that the larger the vocabulary the simpler the grammar. Homophones, homographs and homonyms are actually different words that just happen to look and/or sound like each other.

pdurrant · 09-19-2011, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billi

But English has quite the opposite reputation: it is said to be one of the most economic languages in the world as it has - comparably - few grammar rules and also uses only - relatively - few words as many of its words have many (different) meanings. I would have thought that e.g. French and German had far more words.

You can have a working knowledge of English with a surprisingly small vocabulary (say, 2,000 words).

But English has accumulated a very large number of words. The OED, the closest thing to an authority in English, reckons there are about 175,000 words in current use. (Although other sources, using different definitions of what counts as a word, have said that there's over a million!)

Apparently, the Scrabble list for up to nine letter words has 160,000 words.

http://testyourvocab.com/ is a fun web site. I suspect that their definition is word is close the the OED's, which indicates that the average (middle aged and older) participant in their survey knows about one fifth of the total available English vocabulary!

Of course, this explains why a programme like Call My Bluff could have worked.

hidari · 09-19-2011, 06:00 AM

Any language can have an infinite number of words in it (which one can learn after reading or studying enough linguistics). You can have a working knowledge of ANY language and speak it with a surprisingly limited I did this and do this (though my vocabulary is larger now) in several languages.I do not know the background of most of the posters here, yet I find it funny how English is "glorified" by monolingual English speakers. All languages are complex and interesting. English is not any easy language to learn.

I taught English for 10 years in Europe and heard from numerous people how "easy" English is yet they seem to have forgotten their 10 years of primary and /or secondary English classes that they have taken studying said language.

As to the original OP ...he just makes me want to puke...sounds like the usual RP/monolingual crap on how I should speak, read, spell or write according to him or her. Nothing as irritating as native speaker telling others what is correct....especially to other native speakers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

You can have a working knowledge of English with a surprisingly small vocabulary (say, 2,000 words).

But English has accumulated a very large number of words. The OED, the closest thing to an authority in English, reckons there are about 175,000 words in current use. (Although other sources, using different definitions of what counts as a word, have said that there's over a million!)

Apparently, the Scrabble list for up to nine letter words has 160,000 words.

http://testyourvocab.com/ is a fun web site. I suspect that their definition is word is close the the OED's, which indicates that the average (middle aged and older) participant in their survey knows about one fifth of the total available English vocabulary!

Of course, this explains why a programme like Call My Bluff could have worked.

pdurrant · 09-19-2011, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billi

I would have thought that e.g. French and German had far more words.

I just remembered l'Académie Française. They produce the authoritative dictionary of the French language. They still working on the 9th edition, which it is estimated will contain 50,000 words.

And apparently there's something similar in German, Duden, which contains around 135,000 words.

Billi · 09-19-2011, 06:46 AM

To defend my language a little bit (okay, that's off-topic): we have a lot of compound words and can "invent" them quite freely so we have a lot more words than those 135.000 you gave.

pdurrant · 09-19-2011, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billi

To defend my language a little bit (okay, that's off-topic): we have a lot of compound words and can "invent" them quite freely so we have a lot more words than those 135.000 you gave.

Oh yes, I know about German compound words. Some other languages do the same.

As always in these comparisons, it's how to decide on what's called a word. I think that dictionary entries is as good a measure as any.

All modern languages have sufficient vocabulary for all practical purposes, so comparing vocabulary sizes is really just for fun.

hidari · 09-19-2011, 07:01 AM

Well posted.....pdurrant...

kacir · 09-19-2011, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

http://testyourvocab.com/ is a fun web site. I suspect that their definition is word is close the the OED's, which indicates that the average (middle aged and older) participant in their survey knows about one fifth of the total available English vocabulary!

Thank you for the link.
I was very pleased with my results.

Shimarenda · 09-19-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Kaz, if we pool our lunch money, do we have enough to buy a 12-pack of rolls and TP MopeJoe's front yard?

Hey Youz Guyz! Are there enough weird unnecessary letters, u's, and archaic gh-es in enough for ya?

I'm Melvil Dui, and I apruv this mesag.

pdurrant · 09-19-2011, 09:54 AM

I take it you already know
Of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble, but not you,
On hiccough, thorough, lough and through?
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps,
To learn of less familiar traps?
Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird,
And dead: it's said like bed, not bead -
For goodness sake don't call it deed!
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(They rhyme with suite and straight and debt).
A moth is not a moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, broth in brother,
And here is not a match for there
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,
And then there's dose and rose and lose -
Just look them up - and goose and choose,
And cork and work and card and ward,
And font and front and word and sword,
And do and go and thwart and cart -
Come, come, I've hardly made a start!
A dreadful language? Man alive!
I'd mastered it when I was five!

HarryT · 09-19-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billi

Is this really true? Okay, this "recently" is now more than two years ago so that you most probably don't have this article at hand any longer.

But English has quite the opposite reputation: it is said to be one of the most economic languages in the world as it has - comparably - few grammar rules and also uses only - relatively - few words as many of its words have many (different) meanings. I would have thought that e.g. French and German had far more words.

From the Oxford dictionaries site:

Quote:

It seems quite probable that English has more words than most comparable world languages.

The reason for this is historical. English was originally a Germanic language, related to Dutch and German, and it shares much of its grammar and basic vocabulary with those languages. However, after the Norman Conquest in 1066 it was hugely influenced by Norman French, which became the language of the ruling class for a considerable period, and by Latin, which was the language of scholarship and of the Church. Very large numbers of French and Latin words entered the language. Consequently, English has a much larger vocabulary than either the Germanic languages or the members of the Romance language family to which French belongs.

BenG · 09-19-2011, 10:09 AM

English has a large number of words imported from the French after the Norman conquest. That's one reason why we have two words for so many things: pig and pork, chicken and poultry, start and commence, meet and encounter, fall and autumn, etc.

Sources differ, but as much as 30% of the English vocabulary is derived from the French language. The original Anglo-Saxon word is often retained as well.

BenG · 09-19-2011, 10:12 AM

Looks like I was a little too late. Good post Harry.

Is "nother" okay if it's written as a contraction('nother)?

09-19-2011, 10:12 AM	#225
BenG Home Guard Posts: 4,730 Karma: 86721650 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Alpha Ralpha Boulevard Device: Kindle Oasis 3G, iPhone 6	Looks like I was a little too late. Good post Harry. Is "nother" okay if it's written as a contraction('nother)? Last edited by BenG; 09-19-2011 at 10:14 AM.

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09-19-2011, 12:23 AM	#211
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,072 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	And another thread rises from the grave. But it's a good one.

09-19-2011, 06:46 AM	#217
Billi Wizard Posts: 3,388 Karma: 14190103 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Berlin Device: Cybook, iRex, PB, Onyx	To defend my language a little bit (okay, that's off-topic): we have a lot of compound words and can "invent" them quite freely so we have a lot more words than those 135.000 you gave.

09-19-2011, 07:01 AM	#219
hidari MR Drone Posts: 1,613 Karma: 15612282 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: DRONEZONE Device: PB360+, Huawei MP5, Libra H20	Well posted.....pdurrant...

09-19-2011, 09:54 AM	#222
pdurrant The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠 Posts: 74,051 Karma: 315160596 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Norfolk, England Device: Kindle Oasis	I take it you already know Of tough and bough and cough and dough? Others may stumble, but not you, On hiccough, thorough, lough and through? Well done! And now you wish, perhaps, To learn of less familiar traps? Beware of heard, a dreadful word That looks like beard and sounds like bird, And dead: it's said like bed, not bead - For goodness sake don't call it deed! Watch out for meat and great and threat (They rhyme with suite and straight and debt). A moth is not a moth in mother, Nor both in bother, broth in brother, And here is not a match for there Nor dear and fear for bear and pear, And then there's dose and rose and lose - Just look them up - and goose and choose, And cork and work and card and ward, And font and front and word and sword, And do and go and thwart and cart - Come, come, I've hardly made a start! A dreadful language? Man alive! I'd mastered it when I was five!

09-19-2011, 10:09 AM	#224
BenG Home Guard Posts: 4,730 Karma: 86721650 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Alpha Ralpha Boulevard Device: Kindle Oasis 3G, iPhone 6	English has a large number of words imported from the French after the Norman conquest. That's one reason why we have two words for so many things: pig and pork, chicken and poultry, start and commence, meet and encounter, fall and autumn, etc. Sources differ, but as much as 30% of the English vocabulary is derived from the French language. The original Anglo-Saxon word is often retained as well.