Galaxy Tab Banned in Europe

[afa]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Zis opinion has more weight legally, yes.

But it would be fallacious to leap from that that therefore zis opinion is more well informed. It may be. It may not be.

I think kjk's point was that his opinion on the legal issues of the case was more well informed.

There might be several MR members whose knowledge of tech and tablets might surpass that of the judge. But unless someone here is also a judge (I know we have a few lawyers), and that too a judge who is trained in German law, the only conclusion is that the judge's legal opinion is, indeed, more well informed.

[kartu]

Originally Posted by afa

But unless someone here is also a judge (I know we have a few lawyers), and that too a judge who is trained in German law, the only conclusion is that the judge's legal opinion is, indeed, more well informed.

You don't have to be a shoe maker, to see that shoes do not fit.
You don't need to be "trained in German law" to see, how moronic Mrs Johanna Brukner-Hoffman's arguments are.

All "evidence" of Samsung "trying to look like ipad" is blatantly fabricated.
It has different ratio.
It doesn't look the same.
If anything, it looks like Motorola Xoom (in the middle), not iPad (on the Left):

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by afa

I think kjk's point was that his opinion on the legal issues of the case was more well informed.

There might be several MR members whose knowledge of tech and tablets might surpass that of the judge. But unless someone here is also a judge (I know we have a few lawyers), and that too a judge who is trained in German law, the only conclusion is that the judge's legal opinion is, indeed, more well informed.

That wasn't how I interpreted his post, but given that it was all of one sentence that I was responding to, I'm more than willing to admit I may have misinterpreted him.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by kartu

All "evidence" of Samsung "trying to look like ipad" is blatantly fabricated.
It has different ratio.
It doesn't look the same.
If anything, it looks like Motorola Xoom (in the middle), not iPad (on the Left):

Thank you, I was wondering which one was the Xoom and which one the Samsung. I did recognize the Apple one...

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I'm not really convinced by the prior art issue. The Dutch court did the community design on the basis of prior art, specifically mentioning this compaq tablet:



And this may be right as a matter of Dutch law - I don't know anything about Dutch IP law. But purely as a matter of design, I really don't think that that looks much like an iPad at all.

Exactly.

It doesn't.

But it does match the generic line drawings and descriptions in Apple's community design document, which is one of the reasons that the Dutch judge threw out the case against the Tab in the Netherlands, along with citing 'numerous' other cases of prior art.

We're going round in circles a bit...

See my posts #254 and #255 up thread.

Graham

[afa]

Originally Posted by kartu

You don't have to be a shoe maker, to see that shoes do not fit.

And yet, it I were in need of shoes that would provide extra support for my mother's orthopaedic feet, I would trust the opinion of a professional shoe maker, who is actually trained in the art, than someone whose entire argument hinges on information gleaned off various websites.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and the latter person might very well have a valid point or two, but that would be my approach. It's the safer bet.

More importantly, the analogy simply doesn't work because it is over-simplifying the very complex world of litigation and Intellectual Property rights. You don't need to be anything more than someone with functioning eyesight to be the 'judge' in your example. I daresay presiding over a legal matter in a court of law requires just a smidgeon more knowledge.

You don't need to be "trained in German law" to see, how moronic Mrs Johanna Brukner-Hoffman's arguments are.

I don't need to be trained in art of debate to know that when someone claims a party to be "moronic" -- based on little evidence besides the (limited) information he has read off various blogs and articles -- to know that a weak argument is being made.

All "evidence" of Samsung "trying to look like ipad" is blatantly fabricated.
It has different ratio.
It doesn't look the same.
If anything, it looks like Motorola Xoom (in the middle), not iPad (on the Left):

That is your opinion, based on... well, little more than your personal thoughts and impressions. The judge's opinion was based on the careful consideration of evidence presented by the two sides, all the while keeping in mind the rights and obligations bestowed on corporations by IP and patent-related laws and regulations.

I am not arguing whether the judge's decision was right or wrong. Frankly, I haven't really been following the issue very closely. In fact, I am not even disagreeing with your stand (i.e., that the Galaxy Tab shouldn't have been banned).

What I am disagreeing with is the notion that a group of armchair (desk chair?) lawyers have a better idea of what does or does not qualify as patent-infringement than a qualified adjudicator of court proceedings. That, too, in a country that is likely not one where many of the posters in this thread reside in, or can claim to be intimately familiar with.

[anamardoll]

You don't need to be anything more than someone with functioning eyesight to be the 'judge' in your example. I daresay presiding over a legal matter in a court of law requires just a smidgeon more knowledge.

I don't know how Germany appoints their judges, but we have a pretty complicated system in America. Judges here can be anywhere from highly skilled to "never worked in the legal profession before in their life".

I don't think it's valuable to sling around words like "moronic" here. I'm even willing to believe that based on German law, the judge may have made the correct decision.

BUT. Neither am I willing to assume without evidence that the judge is skilled in this sort of decision. I base that on my own experiences in America; as I said before, German judges may be selected differently.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I don't know how Germany appoints their judges, but we have a pretty complicated system in America. Judges here can be anywhere from highly skilled to "never worked in the legal profession before in their life".

I think the US is, how shall I say it ... unusual in electing judges.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

I think the US is, how shall I say it ... unusual in electing judges.

Depending on the context, they are also appointed by elected officials. Who may or may not appoint their Super Best Friends from high school.

[murraypaul]

A quick Google shows that the Judge in question recently presented to a round table in Turn on "Community design law - Scope of Protection", and was a speaker at the Academy of European Law's "Conference on European Intellectual Property Law", so it does seem that she might have more understanding of the relevant law than most posters here

[kartu]

This well trained judge first sanctioned EU wide sanctions, I recall, then decision was changed to Germany only.

Did laws change last month?

Originally Posted by afa

And yet, it I were in need of shoes that would provide extra support for my mother's orthopaedic feet, I would trust the opinion of a professional shoe maker...

A reasonable analogy to statements like "Same overall impression?", "likelihood of confusion", one need to be a well trained lawyer to understand those indeed...

[Graham]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

A quick Google shows that the Judge in question recently presented to a round table in Turn on "Community design law - Scope of Protection", and was a speaker at the Academy of European Law's "Conference on European Intellectual Property Law", so it does seem that she might have more understanding of the relevant law than most posters here

Disappointed as I am, she does seem very well-respected in the field. You're right, a Google search shows up multiple references going back a number of years. I was particularly struck by a comment in this link for a design seminar she spoke at in Toronto:

Judge Johanna Brückner-Hofmann, Presiding Judge, Dusseldorf District Court (which hears perhaps the largest number of design infringements in Europe at present), explained their methodology for assessing scope and infringement - which was, reassuringly, thoroughly reasonable and broadly compatible with that at OHIM and elsewhere.

Graham

[afa]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

BUT. Neither am I willing to assume without evidence that the judge is skilled in this sort of decision.

With all due respect, you (and I, frankly) are not important enough for any legal professional to go out of their way to 'prove' themselves to. They (or, indeed, I) could easily turn the question around and ask what qualifications and skills do you possess that makes your opinion on the case worthy? Considering the specific nature of this case, I would guess, whatever it is, it is lower than that of the judge. (Although, for all I know, you could indeed be an expert on IP law. In which case, do go ahead and argue the judge's point... )

The fact that she is a qualified judge, in a progressive and advanced country like Germany is, for me, evidence enough. I sort of take the opposite view from you; i.e., unless you can present evidence demonstrating that she is unqualified for the job, I will assume that she must be. I, personally, do not question the skills or qualifications of a person, unless I have information to the contrary. Besides, if you (a general 'you', not necessarily specific to *you*) are going to claim that Person X is unskilled or unqualified, then the burden of proof lies with you. I would not say the judge has to prove anything.

But even if you're correct, and this judge isn't particularly skilled (although murraypaul has presented evidence to the contrary), she's still more skilled than most of us. On a scale of 1 to 10, if she is a '2', the majority of posters in this thread are a '-2'. So she still wins...

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by afa

With all due respect, you (and I, frankly) are not important enough for any legal professional to go out of their way to 'prove' themselves to.

I'm not asking her to.

I was responding to a very specific comment that seemed to me to be saying "What do you all know, she's a judge."

My point was merely that saying Judge = Knowledgeable is a fallacious appeal to authority. Let's drop it -- I probably misread the comment anyway. Yeesh.

[afa]

Agreed. This is rather pointless.




So, um.... How's life? Good? Enjoy the summer?