A moral dilemma

[kennyc]

So YOU say, but I say different. We've only been through this about a billion times on this forum.

[khalleron]

So, Angst, have you garnered enough opinions to have an opinion of your own yet?

'Cause we can wrangle until the cows come home, and never come to an agreement.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Physical books are not the same as digital books.

A corporation cannot replace physical books for free because it will cost them money to print the books, bind them, and mail them to his house. A corporation can replace digital data for free because the data already exists and the delivery infrastructure is in place. If they will not honor his Fictionwise purchases, then they are defrauding him, not the other way around.

I would like to call Analogy Police on this whole thread. Digital books are NOT physical books and all analogies that hinge on physical books are therefore not applicable. IMHO.

Fictionwise honored their contract when they provided him the ebooks the first time. They are in no way required to keep providing him fresh copies of ebooks he has bought when something happens, regardless of the cost. BTW, maintaining copies of ebooks on a service DOES cost something. We're not talking free as air here.

Now other, more expensive e-book stores have a policy of archiving your ebooks for you and allowing you to re-download your e-books if there is a problem. Fictionwise doesn't offer that service, AFAIK. If the OP had wanted that service ( and it appears he didn't) then he should have shopped at those ebookstores . Hey, that's what I do, precisely to get that service. You will notice that he had no problem re-downloading his books from Sony, which DOES offer that service.

Maybe there should be a law requiring that e-bookstores offer such an archiving/backup service. But in the absence of such a law, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by kennyc

So YOU say, but I say different. We've only been through this about a billion times on this forum.

Do you believe that replacing existing* digital data to a customer has a comparable cost to replacing physical media?

I do not understand that stance, to be honest.

* I say existing for a reason.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Now other, more expensive e-book stores have a policy of archiving your ebooks for you and allowing you to re-download your e-books if there is a problem. Fictionwise doesn't offer that service, AFAIK. If the OP had wanted that service ( and it appears he didn't) then he should have shopped at those ebookstores . Hey, that's what I do, precisely to get that service. You will notice that he had no problem re-downloading his books from Sony, which DOES offer that service.

Fictionwise used to offer that service. When I bought my Sony, I was able to download all the books I'd bought from FW years before.

Once again, it's the definition of a 'license' rather than ownership that establishes that one is entitled to replacement copies from the provider.

At issue for Angst is whether it's OK to obtain copies elsewhere if the provider fails to honor that tacit agreement.

For myself, once B&N bought FW, I went in and backed up all the books I had bought - I didn't trust them to keep faith anymore. Unfortunately, I was correct.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

A corporation can replace digital data for free because the data already exists and the delivery infrastructure is in place. If they will not honor his Fictionwise purchases, then they are defrauding him, not the other way around.

Not always true. Especially when the publisher has forced Fictionwise to remove their titles from their servers. Geographic restrictions change, rights are sold, and many such scenarios that the ebook seller has absolutely no control over. Surely Fictionwise can't be expected to break the law in order to keep a permanent copy of their customer's purchases on their servers forever?

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Fictionwise used to offer that service. When I bought my Sony, I was able to download all the books I'd bought from FW years before.

Once again, it's the definition of a 'license' rather than ownership that establishes that one is entitled to replacement copies from the provider.

At issue for Angst is whether it's OK to obtain copies elsewhere if the provider fails to honor that tacit agreement.

For myself, once B&N bought FW, I went in and backed up all the books I had bought - I didn't trust them to keep faith anymore. Unfortunately, I was correct.

The definition of license does not imply any such thing. These words actually have objective meaning, you know . Now if you want to use Fictionwise's purchase by B&N as a fig leaf to cover the action you took, fine. But don't try to twist this into providing moral sanction for doing something illegal or of dubious morality.

[Angst]

Originally Posted by khalleron

I have to disagree - if the theory is that you're sold, not a book, but a license, then the publisher IS obligated to provide free replacements. Or should be, anyway. [snip]

You raise a good point. If what I purchased was a license for the content, it shouldn't matter where I obtain content. Even if the publisher is not obligated to replace the content, can I still obtain the content through my own means because I have a license for the content.

For instance, I have installed Windows 7 from disks I do not own, but used a key I do own to activate the software.

Does it matter where the content, (physical file), is obtained from as long as I have a license to use that content.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Not always true. Especially when the publisher has forced Fictionwise to remove their titles from their servers. Geographic restrictions change, rights are sold, and many such scenarios that the ebook seller has absolutely no control over. Surely Fictionwise can't be expected to break the law in order to keep a permanent copy of their customer's purchases on their servers forever?

I am blaming the publishing company for not honoring his Fictionwise purchases, not Fictionwise. I realize that Fictionwise would happily provide the files if they could.

Now, re: geo-restrictions, rights, etc. It is possible that some of the files he bought are no longer available to be sold by the publisher in his geographic area. I highly doubt it, however, and those would be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Having said that, once again, the point of these "you bought the license" agreements is that the eBook isn't supposed to POOF disappear the next day because of rights being sold. The trade-off for not being able to re-sell my eBook is supposed to be the fact that it's "mine" to use forever*.

* On a limited number of simultaneous devices, yada, yada.

[Angst]

Originally Posted by khalleron

So, Angst, have you garnered enough opinions to have an opinion of your own yet?

'Cause we can wrangle until the cows come home, and never come to an agreement.

Not even close.

Where I stand now is:
Ethically, it is OK because I hurt no one. I have compensated the author and publisher for their work.

Morally, I don't know. Primarily because a large portion of the moral aspect hangs on legality. And I'm no lawyer.

Yet to be resolved:
1. Did I purchase a copy of the book or a license to the content of the book, (along with a copy of the book)?
2. If I purchased a license for the content, does it matter where the content is obtained from?

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by stonetools

The definition of license does not imply any such thing. These words actually have objective meaning, you know . Now if you want to use Fictionwise's purchase by B&N as a fig leaf to cover the action you took, fine. But don't try to twist this into providing moral sanction for doing something illegal or of dubious morality.

What 'action I took' are you objecting to? I downloaded books I had bought from the site I had bought them from. What 'fig leaf' are you referring to?

I did nothing immoral, illegal, or unethical. I took preventative measures to protect the content I had bought and paid for. What are you finding objectionable, please?

[anamardoll]

I personally think this thread has run its course, Angst. You're not likely to get different opinions from the ones already expressed. I would recommend you pick a course, stick with it, and don't tell anyone what you decided either way.

As for what you "really" purchased, only the Fictionwise fine print can say. I don't think I've ever bought from Fictionwise, so I can't help you there. :/

[ucfgrad93]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I would recommend you pick a course, stick with it, and don't tell anyone what you decided either way.

Why not tell us what he did? He brought it up, I hope he doesn't leave us hanging.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

Why not tell us what he did? He brought it up, I hope he doesn't leave us hanging.

Because I would not wish for him to say anything on an internet forum that could be legally acted upon by another party. (Or, for that matter, get him banned from MR.)

Right now, this is all a navel-gazing exercise on moral and ethics and navels.

[Angst]

I am still curious wither I bought the physical files or a license to the content of the ebooks.

I think most of the problem understanding this question arises from comparing ebooks to pbooks. Let me construct an example that relies only on the digital world.

1. I buy a copy of Windows 7. My hard disk crashes. I lost the install disks, but I still have the key. I reinstall Windows 7 from a friend's disk.
2. I buy an ebook. My hard disk crashes. I lost the original file. I copy (install) the file from a friend's disk.

Question: Am I a thief?

Answer: No
1. I bought a license to use Windows 7. It doesn't matter where the physical files come from.
2. I bought a license to the content of the book. It doesn't matter where the physical files come from.


Answer: Yes.
1. Because the files on my disk weren't physically mine, I am a thief.
2. Because the files on my disk weren't physically mine, I am a thief.

I think most people, including Microsoft, would agree that the answer to example 1, (Windows), is no. Why should the answer to example 2, (ebook), be any different?