E-ink or LED displays for ebook reading

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Well, I do feel your pain if you have migraines and if you feel LED screens cause your migraines, I'm not going to doubt your experience. My anecdata is that my wife had migraines and those weren't set off by looking at LEDs- which is a good thing becasuse she is on the computer at her job all day . Regardless, no scientific studies have established that merely watching LED screens cause migraines and I'm going to go with the scientists on this one.

Again, if we are talking solely about ebooks that are text only (that's most ebooks) and reading in good light only (that's most reading) then e-ink is best. Otherwise, LED screens are better in almost every other kind of reading experience (save for the small but important minority whose migraines are possibly caused by reading from LED screens). How's that?
My exasperation has been because this theological debate has been held many times on this forum, as the most cursory search would have revealed. How many times are we going to rechew this cud?

You're doing it again with "merely" & "possibly"... nothing "merely" causes migraines, many things can trigger them either singly or in combination and there is rarely a single trigger factor but you learn which things (individually or in combination) can trigger them and you then do your best to avoid them... also, whilst there are some generally recognised commonalities in causes, there are almost as many triggers as there are sufferers so blanket statements about "merely" and "possibly" come across as plain insulting...

It's like anaphylactic shock... some people are allergic to bee stings and once the allergy reaction is triggered then another sting can require the use of an epi-pen (which you take everywhere) to stop the reaction and stop your airway swelling and closing up. It may not betriggered by every species of bee but are you going to go out of your way to get stung by an unfamiliar bee to prove it? No, you correctly avoid bees and other stinging insects because anything else is dumb. For some people, LED screens ARE a trigger factor and don't work for extensive text reading... I can read continuously for maybe half an hour on screen then my eyes start to feel gritty, my forehead tightens and I stop because in the past I've not and ended up with a full blown migraine... and for those who've never had a migraine, you may sympathise but you have no idea... it isn't pain, it's pain at a level that virtually shuts off all cognitive function, it's massive visual disturbances and can include extreme nausea and more...

I reckon that as long as people come up with "this is crap" for people having trouble with LED/LCD reading then the cud will continue to be re-chewed...

[toddos]

Originally Posted by elcreative

i use computer screens of very high quality both in my home and work environment and they're fine for graphic work and anything where I don't continuously stay absorbed with the content in the manner of reading a book.

Do the math and I'll bet your PC monitor still has a low ppi. My point was that sitting ~2' away from a low-res PC monitor and trying to read for hours on end is quite a bit different than having a high-res handheld 3.5-7" device like a phone or Nook Color. Note that I'm using "resolution" here in the "ppi" sense, not the "total number of pixels" sense. A 30" Apple Cinema Display is a great monitor and has a total resolution of 2560x1600, but at the same time has a low-res 100ppi. Compared to a Nook Color's 170ppi 7" 1024x600 screen, I'd much rather read on the Nook (especially in white-on-black mode).

And that's the point. LCD screens designed for reading can be just as good or better than eink. LCD screens that are not designed for reading (pretty much every PC screen, whether desktop or laptop) are not good. Putting both into a blanket "LED" category skews the poll.

[ucfgrad93]

For me, I would say eink for the majority of reading. However, LCD is better for some types of reading: PDFs, comics, manga, etc.

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by toddos

Do the math and I'll bet your PC monitor still has a low ppi. My point was that sitting ~2' away from a low-res PC monitor and trying to read for hours on end is quite a bit different than having a high-res handheld 3.5-7" device like a phone or Nook Color. Note that I'm using "resolution" here in the "ppi" sense, not the "total number of pixels" sense. A 30" Apple Cinema Display is a great monitor and has a total resolution of 2560x1600, but at the same time has a low-res 100ppi. Compared to a Nook Color's 170ppi 7" 1024x600 screen, I'd much rather read on the Nook (especially in white-on-black mode).

And that's the point. LCD screens designed for reading can be just as good or better than eink. LCD screens that are not designed for reading (pretty much every PC screen, whether desktop or laptop) are not good. Putting both into a blanket "LED" category skews the poll.

Still wrong... I can read for longer on a 100ppi Apple monitor for longer than I can on my Galaxy II S smartphone and, when I tried a Nook Colour for a couple of days, had absolutely no trouble in giving it back and staying with my Sony eReaders... My point is that reading extensive text on LED/LCD screens is absolutely, definitively and totally c**p for me and for others with migraine, visual problems and sensitivity to flicker/refresh rates...

You coming out with all your rationalisations doesn't make a scrap of difference... if you don't have any of these problems then lucky you but get of the backs of those that do and climb off your high horse of righteous correctness... you are not right just because you wish so and say it... and don't be condescending about explaining ppi and assuming the person disagreeing with you doesn't understand what you mean... if I don't know what someone is talking about then I'll ask for clarification... and using LCD and LED interchangeably isn't accurate either...

[toddos]

Originally Posted by elcreative

My point is that reading extensive text on LED/LCD screens is absolutely, definitively and totally c**p for me and for others with migraine, visual problems and sensitivity to flicker/refresh rates...

Emphasis added by me. LCD panels have no flicker. Refresh rates mean nothing for static text except when you're changing pages. Unlike a CRT where the phosphors fade and need to be refreshed on every vertical refresh, LCD pixels stay how they're set until they're told to change. While internally the display driver is likely refreshing every pixel 60 times per second, it's not doing so by blanking and then resetting the pixel. If a pixel is white this frame and going to be white next frame, there's no flicker between the "old" white and the "new" white.

Of course backlights can introduce flicker at their cycle rate (for cold cathode lights), but that flickering would be no worse than what you'd get reading an e-ink display using a CFL lamp. LED lights don't flicker unless they're artificially dimmed by rapidly turning them on and off. Thankfully that's not often used.

Originally Posted by elcreative

and using LCD and LED interchangeably isn't accurate either...

Which was another one of my points. Thanks for reiterating it.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

What other kind of "reading" is there besides text only?

Ah, grasshopper, I have secret reading powers which you do not have. Maybe one day, you will become one of the Adept.

[stonetools]

I wonder how the Retina display fits in here. Everyone who uses it says it's amazing, better than e-ink.
Could one of the techies please explain the LCD/LED thing ? Tia.
Maybe there is something new to say about this, after all.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I wonder how the Retina display fits in here. Everyone who uses it says it's amazing, better than e-ink.
Could one of the techies please explain the LCD/LED thing ? Tia.
Maybe there is something new to say about this, after all.

"Retina display" is just Apple's fancy speak for "high-ppi". It's just a 3.5" screen at 640x960, which calculates out to about 330ppi. The term is meant to imply that the pixels are smaller than the human retina can distinguish, but that's rather simplistic (depends on the eye, viewing distance, etc). Still, it's quite obviously better than older iPhones (320x480), though less obviously better than many Android phones (480x800 and 540x960 at various sizes from 3.8" to 4.5", or 207-290ppi depending on the particular configuration).

The "LCD/LED" thing is semantics. Ignoring OLED screens, every "LED" reference in this thread that was not specifically talking about a backlight source should've been "LCD". "LED" screens are what you find in stadiums or on billboards, for viewing at distances of 50' or more, not 12-24". Of course this gets compounded by marketers who sell TVs and monitors as "LED" when what they mean is "LED-backlit LCD". There are no LED PC monitors or HDTVs or tablets. There are a handful of "LED" (as AMOLED) phone-size screens, but OLEDs are distinct from LEDs.

[stonetools]

Sorry , Retina v Eink debate done and dusted-should have used the Search function

MOBILEREADTHREAD

Sorted out LCD vs LED HERE

Google is a wonderful friend. Maybe there is nothing new to this debate.

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by toddos

Emphasis added by me. LCD panels have no flicker. Refresh rates mean nothing for static text except when you're changing pages. Unlike a CRT where the phosphors fade and need to be refreshed on every vertical refresh, LCD pixels stay how they're set until they're told to change. While internally the display driver is likely refreshing every pixel 60 times per second, it's not doing so by blanking and then resetting the pixel. If a pixel is white this frame and going to be white next frame, there's no flicker between the "old" white and the "new" white.

Of course backlights can introduce flicker at their cycle rate (for cold cathode lights), but that flickering would be no worse than what you'd get reading an e-ink display using a CFL lamp. LED lights don't flicker unless they're artificially dimmed by rapidly turning them on and off. Thankfully that's not often used.



Which was another one of my points. Thanks for reiterating it.

Did I say that LCD panels did have a flicker/refresh rate, read the quote you cleverly highlighted in bold... it was a list of some of the physical triggers that are relevant as I said:

Originally Posted by elcreative
My point is that reading extensive text on LED/LCD screens is absolutely, definitively and totally c**p for me and for others with migraine, visual problems and sensitivity to flicker/refresh rates...

Flicker and refresh do apply to lighting problems other than screens (and they would be CRT anyway as you say). Just because you misinterpret what I said doesn't stop the irritation at the incredibly annoying condescension of assuming someone doesn't understand the technology... I suspect I've been using computer tech for longer than you've been on the planet... and again, if you read what I wrote then you would have seen that if I don't understand something then I would ask, I don't need a patronising lecture...

[sabredog]

Like everything , this argument polarises into the two respective camps with no-man's land in between.

This argument has been picked over before though and to be honest, the poll is telling me what the majority prefer and the arguments really become secondary after seeing that.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by elcreative

nothing "merely" causes migraines, many things can trigger them either singly or in combination and there is rarely a single trigger factor but you learn which things (individually or in combination) can trigger them and you then do your best to avoid them... also, whilst there are some generally recognised commonalities in causes, there are almost as many triggers as there are sufferers so blanket statements about "merely" and "possibly" come across as plain insulting...

It's like anaphylactic shock... some people are allergic to bee stings and once the allergy reaction is triggered then another sting can require the use of an epi-pen (which you take everywhere) to stop the reaction and stop your airway swelling and closing up. It may not betriggered by every species of bee but are you going to go out of your way to get stung by an unfamiliar bee to prove it? No, you correctly avoid bees and other stinging insects because anything else is dumb. For some people, LED screens ARE a trigger factor and don't work for extensive text reading... I can read continuously for maybe half an hour on screen then my eyes start to feel gritty, my forehead tightens and I stop because in the past I've not and ended up with a full blown migraine... and for those who've never had a migraine, you may sympathise but you have no idea... it isn't pain, it's pain at a level that virtually shuts off all cognitive function, it's massive visual disturbances and can include extreme nausea and more...

Well said. I get PISSED off by non informed people assuming migraines are a mere bad headache.

A migraine is a neurological disorder, NOT a headache

My wife suffers complex migraines that paralyse her for up to 40 minutes, with little forewarning (aura). She is completely aware of her surroundings and what is going on around her, just not able to open her eyes or move.

Once she does regain motion, the pain hits, so overwhelming it can make her black out with it.

I was told by her neurologist to stay with her to ensure her Relpax is administered at that time and to ensure she does not stroke. Yep, she has a risk of stroke caused by a migraine. Her medication regime is pretty heavy.

The medication is wonderful but the price to pay afterwards is prolonged. (extreme tiredness etc)

Her triggers are;

Atmospheric pressure change (main one and also uncontrollable)
red wine
coriander
aspartame
acetone/toulene odours
Lynx deodorants
prolonged LCD use

There are others but as you can see, triggers are real and you AVOID them. I am terrified that one day she may not come out of her episode or if she does, my darling lady might not ever be the same.

BTW, her ereader is a non backlit LCD screen Jetbook Lite, soon to be replaced by a Kindle.

[Nyssa]

E-ink is definitely much easier on the eyes, and therefore better for long reading sessions.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

What other kind of "reading" is there besides text only?

Graphic novels. You know, pictures put with words.

Originally Posted by sabredog

Well said. I get PISSED off by non informed people assuming migraines are a mere bad headache.

A migraine is a neurological disorder, NOT a headache

Yeah, most people think that migraines are just bad headaches. They don't understand that they're neurological, and include other symptoms like nausea, vomiting, sensitivity to light, sensitivity to sound, and often only effect a portion of the head. I guess I'm lucky enough that my migraines are relatively minor, especially compared to my girlfriend (who sounds to have them on par with your wife).

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

What other kind of "reading" is there besides text only?

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Graphic novels. You know, pictures put with words.

I was obviously being a bit facetious, but since you took me up on it...
The words are still the only part you're "reading," the rest you're just looking at.

Some people seemed to be suggesting that eInk is best for reading "words" and LCD is better for the rest (not words). If the "rest" is pictures and/or video, I say.... well, duh.