DRM, Rentals, DRM-stripping and Morality

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Phogg

The libraries world wide went with epub as a universal standard before the first Kindle was ever sold.

While it's true that the ePub spec was released a couple of months (September 2007) before the Kindle hit the market (November 2007), it's not true that libraries adopted it at that time.

Libraries first started to use ePub in January 2009, over a year after the Kindle was first available.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I really don't know what you're talking about, Phogg. If you'd read the announcements about the Kindle's library lending you'd know that libraries aren't going to have to "shell out" for anything. Kindle versions of library books will automatically be made available to customers at no additional expense to the library.

Overdrive has doubled and tripled the administration fees charged to libraries starting next year. Reason given was increased usage. The expected additional Kindle users, no doubt, were factored in the upcoming costs.

My own library has stopped adding to their Overdrive collection. And a neighboring one will beta test the new 3M system this year.

[mldavis2]

Originally Posted by Phogg

The libraries world wide went with epub as a universal standard before the first Kindle was ever sold.

All limitations you have are from a private company that does not want its customers to have access to the universal format used by libraries. It is not the place of private corporations to try to make dictates to libraries.

I am fairly involved with our local library, and we have zero plans to ever shell out for some egotistical corporations private standard.

Some bigger libraries in some places might buy for Kindles, but not smaller libraries.

Fair enough, although I'm not that clear on the history of library decision making prior to eBooks (and I'm on the board of our local library friends). Both ePub and mobipocket are open formats and easily interconvertible since they vary little and there is obviously freeware available for doing so. What does vary are the DRM headers embedded into these open files. DRM of one kind or another is used by B&N, Borders (what's left of them), Books-A-Million, Amazon, iBooks and, yes, Overdrive. Amazon is just one of a very large crowd, not the only purveyor of DRM crippling. Shelling out for Overdrive's DRM scheme is no different than shelling out for individual corporate attempts to control the market. Mobipocket is a universal format and available from virtually all independent and freeware sources (i.e. Project Gutenberg, etc.). It's not a deep, dark secret.

I live in a small town with a good but cash-strapped library. We are incredibly fortunate to have had an anonymous donor pay for this year's Overdrive fees (several thousand U.S. dollars) but we still have hundreds of people who are unable to access eLending. For the average consumer, its only after they purchase an eReader that they learn that what they bought won't work with many formats. I'm not necessarily defending Amazon here. It doesn't matter which eReader, they're all incompatible with much of the available eMaterial. Those of us who keep up have surveyed the pros and cons and made our choices, while others are dumbstruck after the fact. Some of us limit our purchases to available resources, others deal with the ethics of an end run.

Personally, I have chosen to put my money into two Kindles, having looked at the available options. I am also registered with most major vendors for eBook purchases. In the event one vendor cannot supply the book of my choice, I use another one, purchase the rights to read the book (or the pBook itself) and do what's necessary to be able to read it. Illegal is not always immoral or unethical.

[PG4003]

I know we are not allowed to post links to instructions on how to remove DRM here on the boards, and I've done the Google thing, but I've also seen software for sale that will remove DRM. Is it worth it to purchase this software? I hope I'm allowed to ask this question here. Thx!

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by PG4003

I know we are not allowed to post links to instructions on how to remove DRM here on the boards, and I've done the Google thing, but I've also seen software for sale that will remove DRM. Is it worth it to purchase this software?

No!

All the commercial ebook DRM removal software uses some version of the scripts available at Apprentice Alf's blog, and will always be a bit out of date. Don't waste your money.

If you're on Windows, just use the calibre plug-ins if you don't want to install Python.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

No!

All the commercial ebook DRM removal software uses some version of the scripts available at Apprentice Alf's blog, and will always be a bit out of date. Don't waste your money.

If you're on Windows, just use the calibre plug-ins if you don't want to install Python.

Given the questionable legality of DRM stripping (It is technically against DMCA in the US, and similar restrictions in other countries), any company that seeks to make a profit from this can't be too reputable. Any company that is shady, is not one I want to give my money to, or I might end up being burned by them.

[Lazybones]

Based on the posts in this thread, a large percentage of e-readers have already separated the legal from the ethical in their use of technology. DRM stripping is illegal in the US as Hellmark noted, regardless of whether you own the product you are stripping, but most people here don't seem to have a problem with it. I wonder if publishers will ever stop fighting what consumers have already decided is an ethnical use of the technology that they already have. It seems that they would be better served just letting consumers do what the want with their product, since by making common practice illegal by pushing laws like the DMCA, they are only breeding contempt for the law in the long run.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Lazybones

DRM stripping is illegal in the US as Hellmark noted,

Nobody actually knows whether it's illegal or not, and until a case goes to court, all that anyone can do is to express an opinion. Some legal authorities think that it is illegal, and others that it isn't, and that disagreement would tend to indicate that it's a bad law.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Given the questionable legality of DRM stripping (It is technically against DMCA in the US, and similar restrictions in other countries), any company that seeks to make a profit from this can't be too reputable. Any company that is shady, is not one I want to give my money to, or I might end up being burned by them.

It's not illegal in Canada, apparently. Yet. So it would be possible to be entirely legitimate and offer DRM removal software from Canada.

But since most of the scripts are copyright by numerous authors, using them in commercial products without permission or acknowledgement is certainly shady. Of course, since the original authors are anonymous, getting permission would be hard. I suspect that most would be satisfied with acknowledgements and links to the free versions.

[linux_author]

i don't buy any DRM'd books... period.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Lazybones

Based on the posts in this thread, a large percentage of e-readers have already separated the legal from the ethical in their use of technology. DRM stripping is illegal in the US as Hellmark noted, regardless of whether you own the product you are stripping, but most people here don't seem to have a problem with it. I wonder if publishers will ever stop fighting what consumers have already decided is an ethnical use of the technology that they already have. It seems that they would be better served just letting consumers do what the want with their product, since by making common practice illegal by pushing laws like the DMCA, they are only breeding contempt for the law in the long run.

There have been contradictory court opinions on whether this type of stripping is indeed illegal under the DMCA. It is by no means certain. We as the population can help shape the interpretation of the laws in this way. It is not NECESSARILY breeding contempt for the law, but can instead be insuring more laws are just, and so there would be less need to be contemptuous because of unjust laws. To this end, I remind all once again that just over a month from now, in October, the Library of Congress will begin accepting public input on it's administrative rule making process, in which they have the power to declare that this sort of DRM stripping for non-infringing use is indeed legal. We should all provide that input.

That being said, I disagree with one of the OPs initial positions about stripping and keeping library books longer than allowed. I view that as a form of theft, and even if it does not cause DIRECT financial loss to the author, it weakens his protections by, as you say, breeding contempt for the rules, if not the law.

ApK

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by linux_author

i don't buy any DRM'd books... period.

You're missing out on a lot of good stuff. Given the extreme ease of removing DRM, it seems like a case of punishing yourself.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You're missing out on a lot of good stuff. Given the extreme ease of removing DRM, it seems like a case of punishing yourself.

I understand his sentiment. If more people voted with their wallets, both in not buying drm and in buying non-drm, drm would vanish faster than...well, cute but inoffensive analogies escape me, but they'd vanish really quickly.

Right I know I subscribe to Harry's reasoning, but if the industry eventually comes out with DRM that, like Apple's, is non-trivial to remove, I'll probably join linux_author's boycott.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ApK

I understand his sentiment. If more people voted with their wallets, both in not buying drm and in buying non-drm, drm would vanish faster than...well, cute but inoffensive analogies escape me, but they'd vanish really quickly.

The problem is that unless there is a way to let the publisher's know the reason you aren't buying DRMed eBooks is because of the DRM, then all they will think is oh eBooks, they don't sell. So we can stop them.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I'd be interested to hear other people's views on the question of rented ebooks and DRM stripping. My views (at the moment) are as follows:

1. DRM-stripping an ebook that you have bought is fine.
2. DRM-stripping a library ebook is fine, so long as you don't keep the ebook longer than your check out limit.
3. DRM-stripping and then keeping a library ebook is not OK, but probably doesn't actually cause the publisher/author any harm.
4. DRM-stripping and then keeping a rented ebook is not OK, and probably does cause the publisher/author harm.

I make a distinction in the last two instances because I feel that someone renting an ebook is actually quite likely to buy the ebook instead, if it wasn't possible to keep the ebook permanently, or at least to rent it for longer than the minimum period. While I feel that someone borrowing from a library is unlikely to buy the book that they've been able to borrow.

Is there a genuine distinction between getting a library book and renting a book? Is one relatively neutral, while the other is harmful?

Thoughts, please.

1. I agree

2. If you strip the DRM from a library eBook and keep it until you've read it and then deleted it, that would not impact others on the waiting list. But is it right?

3. It's not morally right to keep a library eBook. But no, it's won't harm the publisher.

4. I've never rented an eBook. The only ones I know of are Amazon's overpriced text books. But I do think that if you buy them, then sure strip away. But if you rent, don't strip.