PDF is not an eBook format

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

It seems that those who believe the PDF format is not a viable ebook format hold fast to their beliefs because:

1) Many of the PDF books they've experienced in the past were not generated into a proper eBook format

2) They don't have the tools to capitalize on the features that make the PDF format a viable ebook format

3) They don't know how or are unable to hack existing PDF files to make them work with their electronic reader devices

As the OP of this thread I would say that 1 and 2 are true. 3 is non-sequiter since the average consumer doesn't want to or know how to "hack" a PDF... they just want to load the thing on their ebook reader (whatever that is) and go.

So if:

1. PDF files that are meant to be "eBooks" rather than a way to send a document from one person to another are all "tagged".

2. eBook readers are able to display PDF files allowing for the text to flow propertly and font size to be changed.

Then I would say that PDF could be considered an eBook format.

However I would think anyone in this thread on any side would have to admit that for a common text only fiction book there is alot of unneeded markup in a PDF file. Basic .txt or .html with a few font tags and anchor tags for toc is all that is needed.

BOb - Didn't expect anywhere near the hail storm in this thread that has occured.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by tompe

Which tools are you referring to?

There are hundreds of PDF readers, PDF creators, and PDF converters on the market. Many are free and lots are cheap. They all claim to work but often they do a poor job in the real world.

The creators don't support tags, many only produce images instead of real text, and some don't even support TOC or metadata. Most don't linearize the data or compress it properly.

The converters often convert to images or text with all formatting lost. Some mishandle images or can't handle them at all.

I agree that PDF is complicated and made more complicated by all the various purposes it is trying to accomplish. For example there is a archive specification for PDF that requires embedding all fonts in the file and no compression. This improves its quality as an archive for future use years from now but certainly is not optimum for eBook use. PDF is also a page layout system and an eDocument system, a print substitute and many, many other applications.

Dale

[Jack B Nimble]

As I have said, I am not a fan of PDF for ebooks, but I did consider it at one point when I wanted some DRMed books, but I wanted them compatible with my Macbook (Adobe and eReader are the only DRM formats with mac readers). I threw Adobe out the window when I asked Fictionwise if their PDF books were tagged for reflow. The customer service rep informed me that PDF cannot reflow. I pointed them him to several articles correcting his information (which I am certain he did not read), and went on to download my eReader files.

Just out of curiosity, given the ongoing discussion, I tried downloading some of my unprotected Fictionwise purchases in PDF. I tried three different files, from three different publishers, and lo and behold, reflow works on each (I am using Acrobat 7, btw). Now, that is not to say it would be the same with protected PDF files, and with what I have since learned of Adobe DRM issues, I will happily stick with eReader when I can, but it does open up some extra options.

Jack

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Jack B Nimble

Just out of curiosity, given the ongoing discussion, I tried downloading some of my unprotected Fictionwise purchases in PDF. I tried three different files, from three different publishers, and lo and behold, reflow works on each (I am using Acrobat 7, btw).

Ok, of all the PDF's I have on my work PC, mostly tech books or software documentation only one was tagged. How do you get it to flow in Reader vs 7? When I shrink the size of the window I just get scroll bars?

BOb

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it on the view menu. Apparently you can relow untagged docs too, they just don't work as fast and may not look as good.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

There are hundreds of PDF readers, PDF creators, and PDF converters on the market. Many are free and lots are cheap. They all claim to work but often they do a poor job in the real world.

The creators don't support tags, many only produce images instead of real text, and some don't even support TOC or metadata. Most don't linearize the data or compress it properly.

The converters often convert to images or text with all formatting lost. Some mishandle images or can't handle them at all.

I agree that PDF is complicated and made more complicated by all the various purposes it is trying to accomplish. For example there is a archive specification for PDF that requires embedding all fonts in the file and no compression. This improves its quality as an archive for future use years from now but certainly is not optimum for eBook use. PDF is also a page layout system and an eDocument system, a print substitute and many, many other applications.

And my point was that the reason for this is the format. I tried to find some tool for Linux to remove the margins of a pdf document but could not easily find any tool that worked correctly. And I think this is a rather easy operation that the format should support and it should be easy to write a tool the does this.

[ProfJulie]

Originally Posted by Jack B Nimble

As I have said, I am not a fan of PDF for ebooks, but I did consider it at one point when I wanted some DRMed books, but I wanted them compatible with my Macbook (Adobe and eReader are the only DRM formats with mac readers). I threw Adobe out the window when I asked Fictionwise if their PDF books were tagged for reflow. The customer service rep informed me that PDF cannot reflow. I pointed them him to several articles correcting his information (which I am certain he did not read), and went on to download my eReader files.

Just out of curiosity, given the ongoing discussion, I tried downloading some of my unprotected Fictionwise purchases in PDF. I tried three different files, from three different publishers, and lo and behold, reflow works on each (I am using Acrobat 7, btw). Now, that is not to say it would be the same with protected PDF files, and with what I have since learned of Adobe DRM issues, I will happily stick with eReader when I can, but it does open up some extra options.

Jack

If you are able to download and view a sample of the book (many eBook sellers provide samples nowadays), you can check the properties of the book to see if it is accessible. To do this, all you need to do is open up the demo book in Adobe Reader, select File > Properties and then you'll see "Tagged PDF:" with a Yes or No after it.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

1) Many of the PDF books they've experienced in the past were not generated into a proper eBook format

Correct. But I will add to your statement that many of the PDFs still are not created in the correct format. It makes no difference if PDF can work if the PDF you want to read doesn't work.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

2) They don't have the tools to capitalize on the features that make the PDF format a viable ebook format

Tagged PDFs will be viable only when a free tool exists that creates tagged PDFs that aren't 8 times larger than the competing formats.

Remember, you still have not told us what features PDF has over competing formats.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

3) They don't know how or are unable to hack existing PDF files to make them work with their electronic reader devices

Since the purpose of PDF was to create a non-changable document, this will always be a problem.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

No matter that the PDF format can reflow to accommodate just about every screen size.

At the cost of processor speed and storage space.

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

Because hardware developers and eBook publishers don't know about or use these features, let's just reject the format, call it junk and be done with it.

Since it offers absolutely no benefits over smaller, more open formats, why deal with PDF's problems?

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

I don't think anyone here is stating that the PDF format is the BEST format to use for eBooks, but so far I have not seen any alternate view here that rules it out as a viable eBook format

Hmmm.... Let's see...

1) It's horribly bloated compared to other formats.
2) It requires proprietary tools (that only run on proprietary operating systems) to create properly.
3) It's immutable.
4) It offers no benefits over lighter competing formats.

[WillAdams]

PDF however, allows one to have nice typography with control that no other ebook format allows as-of-yet....

William

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We need to seperate types of eBooks then we can say where PDF works and where PDF fails...

PDF fails for books that are mostly text based. Like say the latest Star Trek book for example.

Disagree. A tagged PDF is larger than other formats, but still perfectly suitable for text-based content.

[Jack B Nimble]

Originally Posted by WillAdams

PDF however, allows one to have nice typography with control that no other ebook format allows as-of-yet....

William

Funny enough, that is one of the things I dislike about PDF. As a reader, I prefer to be able to define the font(s) and color scheme, and my choices don't always match the taste of the author/designer.

I do like the generic font family design that HTML had (I think it is considered deprecated now). The user could define a default font, a monospace one, one with a script style, and one standout (fantasy, I think it was called). That way the author could still have some control over the presentation, but not at the expense of my eyes.

Jack

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by tompe

And my point was that the reason for this is the format. I tried to find some tool for Linux to remove the margins of a pdf document but could not easily find any tool that worked correctly. And I think this is a rather easy operation that the format should support and it should be easy to write a tool the does this.

I was agreeing with your point but not your reason for the point. It is not that there is expensive software but that the cheap software doesn't work.

Dale

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Jack B Nimble

Funny enough, that is one of the things I dislike about PDF. As a reader, I prefer to be able to define the font(s) and color scheme, and my choices don't always match the taste of the author/designer.

I do like the generic font family design that HTML had (I think it is considered deprecated now). The user could define a default font, a monospace one, one with a script style, and one standout (fantasy, I think it was called). That way the author could still have some control over the presentation, but not at the expense of my eyes.

Jack

I always thought HTML went downhill after 3.2. CSS and all the other crap removes the users control of the presentation. In a Browser I should have control (some pages I view I can't even read), however for an eBook I can see some advantages to CSS et. al.

Dale

[cmbs]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I always thought HTML went downhill after 3.2. CSS and all the other crap removes the users control of the presentation. In a Browser I should have control (some pages I view I can't even read), however for an eBook I can see some advantages to CSS et. al.

Dale

How does css remove your control of presentation?

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I always thought HTML went downhill after 3.2. CSS and all the other crap removes the users control of the presentation.

HTML layout can do that, but it doesn't have to. If the author specifies specific sizes and fonts and absolute positions then you don't have much control over it. However, if it is written with relative positions, font suggestions, designs it to be floable then you have much more control as the end user. This doesn't have to do with the newer standards so much as how people are using them.

That said, there are add-ins for browers that allow you to substitue your own styles/stylesheets for the ones pulled down from the web site which gives you ultimate control over the display of the content.

BOb

[cmbs]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

HTML layout can do that, but it doesn't have to. If the author specifies specific sizes and fonts and absolute positions then you don't have much control over it. However, if it is written with relative positions, font suggestions, designs it to be floable then you have much more control as the end user. This doesn't have to do with the newer standards so much as how people are using them.
BOb

That's true.

I was wondering if this is what Dale is talking about or something else I'm unaware of.