why the fuss over epub?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by jocampo

And I keep my position. DRM schemes are not good for end users and are not actually stoping or avoiding piracy. A watermark style protection (like your name printed on each page) looks like a smarter way to me, without forcing you to keep using the same ereader all the time.

FWIW, I can't think of a mark-each-page watermark system that works with reflowable formats like ePub and mobi. However, ebooks could be tagged with the buyer's name on a front page, next to the copyright notice: "This ebook purchased by [username, email address] from [url] on [date]." Additional watermark-ish things could be added to the metadata, and possibly chapter shifts.

That'd encourage sales (hey! customized ebooks!) and make it easy to track stupid distribution; clever people would edit the files themselves--but those tools aren't as widespread nor easy to use, and aren't likely to be.

[emoorman]

Pardon me for jumping in here, since I read on a phone and my PC and don't really own an ereader. I have been reading books on PDAs and phones for many years. I seem to recall I started on a Sharp PDA, then went to 3 Palms, a Palm Centro phone, a Moto Q9h Win phone and now a Moto Bravo Android phone.

I also have Kindle for PC/Android, eReader.com for PC, Nook for PC/Android, FBReader for PC/Android, KObo for PC/Android, Adobe digital Editions and Calibre.

Personally, I can't tell a whit of difference in how they all read. I'm 73 and my eyes aren't as good as when I was a "boy fighter pilot" strapped to a fast jet, but the standard font type and size is OK on all of them for me. The features all seem to be pretty much the same. I don't like pdfs very much. I have read Mobi & ePub free books from MobileRead, but normally I buy the $7-$15 books from one of the major dealers.

After trying all of them, I mainly use Kindle, but if there is something I like on B&N or Kobo, I get it. Amazon just seems, to me, to be the simplest and quickest to use.

For those who are considering a dedicated ebook reader, I would suggest trying it my way, running the software on your PC and/or phone and buying a couple of inexpensive books from each of the main distributors and see which one you prefer to deal with.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

That'd encourage sales (hey! customized ebooks!) and make it easy to track stupid distribution; clever people would edit the files themselves--but those tools aren't as widespread nor easy to use, and aren't likely to be.

I'd be delighted if ebooks that I bought had a customised owner's page at the front or back, especially if it give details of when and where the book as bought.

[kranu]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Exactly. Thanks for supporting my point. It happens more often than you think. Even with software. My wife bought a game that required a CD put the drive for activation while playing. Until one day the CD drive broke from overheating and she couldn't play the game anymore. So she downloaded the activation crack and continued playing the game.

Well, in that case, I really can't argue with you. I believe that what you're doing there is wrong. If a company happens to sue you over that (although I doubt they will), that would not be a valid defense.

What do you mean by illegitimate customers? Is it if you bought a book that is sold only in certain region by pretending to be resident of this region? Or one who bought a book legally and then removed DRM illegally? I can't really comprehend the concept of "illegitimate customer" because blaming the customer sounds so Soviet.

By illegitimate customer, I mean a customer either like the above, or one who did not purchase the product at all. In other words, what I mean by an illegitimate customer, is a customer who did not obtain their copy of a product through official methods.

[kranu]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Right, and we both, most here in MR, are consumers. I want free DRM books. I like freedom, in terms of DRM. I don't care about the format, we have Calibre for that.

And I keep my position. DRM schemes are not good for end users and are not actually stoping or avoiding piracy. A watermark style protection (like your name printed on each page) looks like a smarter way to me, without forcing you to keep using the same ereader all the time.

Do you really think all these DRM stuff is to minimize piracy? please ... this is about ecosystems and money, and Apple to force users to read on Apple readers, B&N on Nooks, and Amazon books on Kindle related apps and hardware, with the advantage that Amazon has a bigger selection and better support for their customers (notice I'm talking about DRM books, I can read free mobi books on my Kindle already)

I'm looking at this from a broad perspective that encompasses both the company's viewpoint and the consumer's viewpoint. And I do believe that DRM was designed to minimize piracy.

You look at the situation like it's some sort of conspiracy. Although there is some supporting evidence, I highly doubt your conclusion.

Watermark style protections are good, but they could also easily be removed. For example, as you explain it, it could just be cropped out of each page with a batch photo software. If the watermark was behind the actual text, I think that users would find it even more annoying than current DRM methods.

If you could find a better way for DRM (i.e. less troublesome for users and also more secure for companies), I'm sure that companies would eventually start to use it (unless you patent it and add some crazy loyalty fees to it).

[DiapDealer]

or one who did not purchase the product at all. In other words, what I mean by an illegitimate customer, is a customer who did not obtain their copy of a product through official methods.

That type of customer(?) never has to deal with DRM anyway. Only legitimate customers are ever burdened by DRM. You know, the one's who are paying for their books and doing things right? Pirates are completely unaffected by it.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That type of customer(?) never has to deal with DRM anyway. Only legitimate customers are ever burdened by DRM. You know, the one's who are paying for their books and doing things right? Pirates are completely unaffected by it.

Spot on. As xkcd said:


Pay special attention to the flow chart!

People who get their media (books, movies, games, music) from unauthorised sources are never affected by DRM. All their content comes DRM free.

It's only people who actually pay for their media that are adversely affected by DRM.

[karunaji]

I think that personalized copies of e-books in non-obstructive but easily identifiable way would work much better than DRM. It would discipline people to not give their purchased e-books even to friends because there is a risk that they may inadvertently put them on torrents for public download and then you can be hold responsible for it.

Oh, by the way, I was wrong about the crack for that game. My wife says that she only intended to use it but it was not necessary. The company apparently had received too many complaints about their DRM problems so they had issued an update for the game to allow playing it without the CD inserted. Complaining about DRM can sometimes change the minds of vendors after all.

I believe that e-books have DRM only because the parties involved in their publishing do not fully understand the actual results of DRM use. It is only a time when most ebooks will be sold without DRM.

[kranu]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That type of customer(?) never has to deal with DRM anyway. Only legitimate customers are ever burdened by DRM. You know, the one's who are paying for their books and doing things right? Pirates are completely unaffected by it.

That's true. That's why current DRM methods suck.

[kranu]

Originally Posted by karunaji

I think that personalized copies of e-books in non-obstructive but easily identifiable way would work much better than DRM. It would discipline people to not give their purchased e-books even to friends because there is a risk that they may inadvertently put them on torrents for public download and then you can be hold responsible for it.

Could you give an example of how you could implement the personalized copies of e-books in non-obstructive but easily identifiable ways?

Also, I would consider this to be a method of DRM.

Oh, by the way, I was wrong about the crack for that game. My wife says that she only intended to use it but it was not necessary. The company apparently had received too many complaints about their DRM problems so they had issued an update for the game to allow playing it without the CD inserted. Complaining about DRM can sometimes change the minds of vendors after all.

[Off Topic] That sounds like a good company. Would you mind telling me what company?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by kranu

Also, I would consider this to be a method of DRM.

It still is technically a form of DRM, yes, but it's what's considered "social" DRM. And it wouldn't interfere in any way with the legal owner moving the file to any eReader that would support the format natively, or converting it to another format should they get a new eReader that didn't support the original format. Much less burdensome, IMO.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by kranu

Could you give an example of how you could implement the personalized copies of e-books in non-obstructive but easily identifiable ways?

This way:

However, ebooks could be tagged with the buyer's name on a front page, next to the copyright notice: "This ebook purchased by [username, email address] from [url] on [date]." Additional watermark-ish things could be added to the metadata, and possibly chapter shifts.

I would also add the identifying text in the background color before each chapter, so that it would not be seen at all and still be there. It would survive every format change or copy/paste action.

It would be harder to add these watermarks for each book individually but Amazon has enough cloud computing power to parse and update each file before sending it to a Kindle.

That sounds like a good company. Would you mind telling me what company?

That game was Sid Meier's Civilization IV.

[DrDln]

I believe in one standard format that every e-reader should be able to read. I still read on computer, even though I did buy kindle.

[kranu]

Originally Posted by karunaji

This way:

I would also add the identifying text in the background color before each chapter, so that it would not be seen at all and still be there. It would survive every format change or copy/paste action.

It would be harder to add these watermarks for each book individually but Amazon has enough cloud computing power to parse and update each file before sending it to a Kindle.

But someone could easily use an eBook editor to do a find/replace of all instances of their identifying information. What then?

[kranu]

Originally Posted by DrDln

I believe in one standard format that every e-reader should be able to read. I still read on computer, even though I did buy kindle.

Sounds cool, but there would be an endless argument about what format to make the standard. And even then, companies would not want to go through their entire library and convert each book (not to mention the quality control for certain advanced formatting features).