why the fuss over epub?

[thebestjeter]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I did not ask if Mobipocket was good enough for your needs. I asked What makes Mobipocket better then ePub? What can Mobipocket do for the eBook that ePub cannot? and you NEVER answered. Please answer the questions instead of trying to side-step.

I don't take side-stepping for an answer.

Someone has told you what makes Mobipocket better than ePub based on personal needs, due to the lack of dictionary standard on ePub format. Of course, you close your eyes, and still saying nobody have said nothing. Mobipocket has dictionaries and ePub doesn't, and that, for non-native English speakers is a BIG deal.

I subscribe to everything she says. Please read and realize that ePub is far from perfect:

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Sorry, but that's true only if you are English native. I'm waiting for French-French dictionaries, Spanish-Spanish (DRAE or María Moliner, as you have in Mobipocket), or the ability to add more dictionaries if I want to learn Polish, for example.

While I can't do that, ePub lacks a big feature (more important for me than right margin or embedded font), and what you means is not a solution, it is only a workaround, as ePub designers should know.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by kranu

Take one of the most popular software companies out there: Adobe. All of their software requires this complicated activation process, in which you must connect to the internet, run your serial by Adobe's licensing server, and then register your product. I'm not going to claim that this stops the software from being cracked, but it does in fact deter crackers.

No, it doesn't deter crackers. It only deters a lot of legitimate customers. The procedure is too difficult for a general person that many simply don't care and buy a Kindle instead. Once I had to spend a couple of hours to figure out why I can't download and read Adobe DRM protected book that I had bought from Kobo. I contacted Kobo technical support and they said that they have to reset something etc. and after two days they did. Extremely inconvenient, if you ask me. So, then I decided that I need to remove DRM to avoid future problems (and also to read a book on a Kindle) and that part was much easier to do.

From the user's standpoint, it's little more than a one-time hassle, where they need to wait a couple seconds for the process to complete.

I think that any serious problems to a reader due to DRM is only going to change a user's moral stance regarding the sharing.

Maybe that statistic is true. However, that 1% of cases get uploaded to the internet, and that's what matters; only one copy of a book needs to be uploaded to the internet. When I wrote my post yesterday, I ran a search, and I found plenty of 'retail copy' torrents.

That 1% will find a way to remove DRM in either case. Most pirated books are scanned pdf copies, so in the extreme case one could make a series of screenshots.

Many people feel guilty about breaking DRM, or feel (rightly) worried about downloading books from online.

So, if people are following the rules then replace DRM with a legal notice that sharing is bad. It looks that you agree with me.

As I said your friends usually are not that interested in what you read anyway. Any loss of sales would be minimal. It is the same as for music. Only sharing and downloading from torrents is potentially risky. If you friend buys an album and gives you to listen, it is not a big issue.

[trekchick]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

Interesting - I've usually found it to be the other way round ePub > mobi/prc ...

mobi supports dictionary lookup, whilst last I saw ePub didn't....

ePub doesn't define dictionary lookup, but ePub readers do support it. For example, Sony Readers come with regular British and American English dictionaries plus a dozen or so translation dictionaries to look up words in ePub or PDF documents.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by trekchick

ePub doesn't define dictionary lookup, but ePub readers do support it. For example, Sony Readers come with regular British and American English dictionaries plus a dozen or so translation dictionaries to look up words in ePub or PDF documents.

As I understand Sony has not published their dictionary format therefore it is not possible to use third party dictionaries without Sony's cooperation. That's really not enough.

Some other epub readers use stardict format dictionaries. I haven't tried them but it could work for most people. I am already planning to convert my existing mobipocket dictionaries so that I don't have to buy them again when all vendors have switched to epub readers.

Amazon's dictionary support is not perfect either. It is just a byproduct of a hack job over Palm databases that is called mobipocket format. For example, their newly released Cloud reader does not support dictionaries at all.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by trekchick

ePub doesn't define dictionary lookup, but ePub readers do support it. For example, Sony Readers come with regular British and American English dictionaries plus a dozen or so translation dictionaries to look up words in ePub or PDF documents.

Yes, it's OK but, as I've said, ... there's world outside English language With Mobipocket you're able to buy the dictionaries that suit better to you and to add them to your reader. And I can use the same dictionary in my Palm and my Opus, for example. If there's no spec you're tied to the manufacturer (even more than with DRM).

[trekchick]

Originally Posted by deltop

I don't see why Amazon voluntarily killing mobi would be insane. In fact I can see that happening quite easily.

Going purely on their technical merits epub IS a better format than mobi, I can't see how any one can refute that. Killing off mobi and supporting epub (with their own brand of drm of course) would make sense for Amazon...

Some people automatically lump ePub with Adobe DRM (and never the twain shall part). It _would_ be insane for Amazon to switch to ADEPT, but as you say, it would be quite sensible for Amazon to switch to ePub.

Just like Apple extended their Fairplay DRM to iBooks, Amazon could apply their existing DRM mechanism to ePubs, and get a better quality product with less work in the bargain.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by trekchick

ePub doesn't define dictionary lookup, but ePub readers do support it. For example, Sony Readers come with regular British and American English dictionaries plus a dozen or so translation dictionaries to look up words in ePub or PDF documents.

That's all very well, but what do you do if you want a dictionary that's not supplied? With the Kindle, you can simply buy one and install it. What do you do on the Sony?

[thebestjeter]

Originally Posted by karunaji

As I understand Sony has not published their dictionary format therefore it is not possible to use third party dictionaries without Sony's cooperation. That's really not enough.

Some other epub readers use stardict format dictionaries. I haven't tried them but it could work for most people. I am already planning to convert my existing mobipocket dictionaries so that I don't have to buy them again when all vendors have switched to epub readers.

Amazon's dictionary support is not perfect either. It is just a byproduct of a hack job over Palm databases that is called mobipocket format. For example, their newly released Cloud reader does not support dictionaries at all.

Kindle Cloud Reader has just been lauched. Be sure that they are going to add that feature as well as taking note and make bookmarks. Ah, and Sony doesn't have dictionary format; such thing doesn't exist. Sony just have a dozen of dictionaries embedded in their firmware. That can hardly be called "format". And the quality and selection of stardict dictionaries is infinity inferior to the ones Mobi has.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by thebestjeter

Kindle Cloud Reader has just been lauched. Be sure that they are going to add that feature as well

Not going to believe such promises. First of all, Cloud reader is released not on its technical merits but merely as a stopgap to circumvent Apple's unreasonable demands.

Second, there is no much space for dictionaries in the current implementation as the their offline database space cannot exceed 50 MB. Some dictionaries can be bigger than that. They could implement online dictionary search but it has its own limitations. This web app is never going to be equal to a stand alone app.

[trekchick]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Yes, it's OK but, as I've said, ... there's world outside English language With Mobipocket you're able to buy the dictionaries that suit better to you and to add them to your reader. And I can use the same dictionary in my Palm and my Opus, for example. If there's no spec you're tied to the manufacturer (even more than with DRM).

Although the majority of my library is in English, Spanish and French are well represented, as well as a smattering of Gaelic and Polish (język polski is a struggle) so I really didn't mean to imply that English is the whole of the world.

You're absolutely right that until ePub defines and standardizes dictionary support, an ePub dictionary will be unportable to other devices for lookups. However, Kindle dictionaries are only usable on Kindle devices/apps, so the end result of being tied to the manufacturer is the same. And, if you'll pardon me for being Kindle-centric in the Kindle forum, Mobipocket dictionaries aren't usable on Kindle without chicanery beyond the scope of this discussion.

[thebestjeter]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Not going to believe such promises. First of all, Cloud reader is released not on its technical merits but merely as a stopgap to circumvent Apple's unreasonable demands.

Second, there is no much space for dictionaries in the current implementation as the their offline database space cannot exceed 50 MB. Some dictionaries can be bigger than that. They could implement online dictionary search but it has its own limitations. This web app is never going to be equal to a stand alone app.

I can't understand why is really impossible that the Kindle Cloud Library cannot support dictionary, but, anyway, that is not enough proof to say that the dictionary support in Mobi is not perfect. For me it is perfectly perfect since I only read onmy Kindle and sometime use the Mobipocket dictionaries on Mobipocket Reader for PC.

[thebestjeter]

Originally Posted by trekchick

You're absolutely right that until ePub defines and standardizes dictionary support, an ePub dictionary will be unportable to other devices for lookups. However, Kindle dictionaries are only usable on Kindle devices/apps, so the end result of being tied to the manufacturer is the same. And, if you'll pardon me for being Kindle-centric in the Kindle forum, Mobipocket dictionaries aren't usable on Kindle without chicanery beyond the scope of this discussion.

I have 70 free dictionary in Mobipocket format (DRM-free of course), mostly Oxford and Vox, such as the Oxford Advance Learner Dictionary. You can't find any of them in ePub format. I can use them in any device that support mobi dictionaries. I'm not tied only to Amazon Kindle and apps.

With ePub I don't have even the option of being tied.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by thebestjeter

I have 70 free dictionary in Mobipocket format (DRM-free of course), mostly Oxford and Vox, such as the Oxford Advance Learner Dictionary.

That sounds interesting - could you give a download URL for them, please? I didn't know that any Oxford dictionaries were freely available.

[trekchick]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's all very well, but what do you do if you want a dictionary that's not supplied? With the Kindle, you can simply buy one and install it. What do you do on the Sony?

I'll readily admit that it's not ideal. The dictionaries Sony sells don't work the same way as the built-ins. I'm lucky that four of the translation dictionaries I bought for Kindle had equivalents built-in to Sony, so I didn't feel the need to duplicate purchases. I like that my Kindle's dictionary capabilities are expandable, it's something in the Kindle's plus column that is unanswered by my other devices.

My example was meant only to illustrate that good dictionary support is possible with ePub readers, even without the benefit of standardization.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by trekchick

However, Kindle dictionaries are only usable on Kindle devices/apps, so the end result of being tied to the manufacturer is the same. And, if you'll pardon me for being Kindle-centric in the Kindle forum, Mobipocket dictionaries aren't usable on Kindle without chicanery beyond the scope of this discussion.

DRM-free Mobipocket dictionaries work just fine on the Kindle.

The essential point here, though, is that book publishers CANNOT publish dictionaries for ePub devices, whereas they can - and do - publish Mobi/Kindle dictionaries. It's a restriction not just for the end-user, but for the publisher, too.