why the fuss over epub?

[kranu]

Originally Posted by alansplace

drm, what's to debate about drm? every ebook reader owner/user agrees that drm should DIE!!!!

I disagree. There's rational logic behind the original idea of DRM. It prevents or at least discourages people from sharing books with each other. Before you ask "What's wrong with sharing books? I do that with actual books all the time.", you must note that sharing books online is extremely easy and there's no penalty to the original uploader (with regular books, they can't read it for the duration they share it for) unless the law catches up with them.

However, as people crack DRM, companies try to create new, harsher methods of DRM to make it more difficult. For example, Blizzard's latest games require that you constantly (or at least periodically) connect to the internet, so that they can verify your account.

If companies don't continually update their DRM to stricter standards, they are punished. For example, Amazon's DRM is very convenient for the user, but because of that, it is extremely weak. As a result, there are plenty of Amazon books floating around the internet, with the DRM removed. In this particular case, Amazon's loss is probably minimal enough so as to not deeply concern them.

I once ran into an ebook (more like etextbook) store that had my name and address embedded onto each page of purchased books. I assume that this discouraged pirates from sharing their copy, because they could easily be targeted. I could still share this ebook with friends (that already know where I live), but not with people I hardly know. IMO, this is what the ideal DRM would serve to do. However, as effective as this style of DRM is, it can still get annoying; No doubt that Kindle owners would be very angered if they lost an inch of space on their screen just to display their contact information.

Don't get me wrong; I hate modern DRM as much as every other person. However, it's not that DRM should die. It's the way that DRM is implemented that should die. The question is, what would replace current implementations?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by TimW

If you're waiting for the death of Mobi, you will probably be waiting for a long while.

All that's necessary for the death of Mobi is for Amazon to release new Kindle models that render ePub (as well as Mobi). Then we can all just generate good quality ePubs, and let Amazon worry about the conversion from ePub to Mobi for older Kindles.

It might even happen this year, and would be invisible to most end users.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by kranu

If companies don't continually update their DRM to stricter standards, they are punished.

On the contrary. The companies who try to invent more restrictive DRM are losing sales. Games might be slightly different issue because they require a lot of interactivity. But since they started to sell DRM-free music the sales are doing fine. Books are even simpler than music and movies and it's impossible to make hard to break DRM system without seriously inconveniencing the reader.

As a result, there are plenty of Amazon books floating around the internet, with the DRM removed. In this particular case, Amazon's loss is probably minimal enough so as to not deeply concern them.

I am betting that 99% of cases when DRM is removed from Kindle books it is to read them on other devices (Sony, Kobo, Pocketbook etc.). Most people don't bother putting them on internet. They occasionally might give them to friends to read if they are interested. Usually they are not and never read them but spreading the book still works like a free advertisement.

If Amazon would drop DRM altogether it would not change anything. Implementing a stronger (unbreakable for a general layperson) protection and making it impossible to read on other devices would decrease popularity of this platform.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by TimW

If you're waiting for the death of Mobi, you will probably be waiting for a long while. The chances are very good that there will never be a universal book format. If not, does it really matter? Not really.

I think that once we can get rid of Mobi, we might find even better made eBooks in ePub as nobody would then have to cater to Mobi. Features that do not translate to Mobi could then be more used.

The death of Mobi would mean ePub is the only real format left. Then the next step is to dump DRM.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I think that once we can get rid of Mobi, we might find even better made eBooks in ePub as nobody would then have to cater to Mobi. Features that do not translate to Mobi could then be more used.

What will people who have bought Mobi dictionaries for their Kindle do? You know as well as I do that a significant issue with ePub is that the standard does not define dictionary support!

[TimW]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I think that once we can get rid of Mobi, we might find even better made eBooks in ePub as nobody would then have to cater to Mobi. Features that do not translate to Mobi could then be more used.

The death of Mobi would mean ePub is the only real format left. Then the next step is to dump DRM.

"I think that once we can get rid of Mobi..." Who is "we?" The only way Mobi disappears is if 1) Amazon voluntarily kills it, which would be insane or 2) people stop purchasing Amazon books. Are either of those scenarios likely? The second one could happen but there isn't any signs of that happening yet. We'll let the market decide.

[deltop]

Originally Posted by TimW

"I think that once we can get rid of Mobi..." Who is "we?" The only way Mobi disappears is if 1) Amazon voluntarily kills it, which would be insane or 2) people stop purchasing Amazon books. Are either of those scenarios likely? The second one could happen but there isn't any signs of that happening yet. We'll let the market decide.

I don't see why Amazon voluntarily killing mobi would be insane. In fact I can see that happening quite easily.

Going purely on their technical merits epub IS a better format than mobi, I can't see how any one can refute that. Killing off mobi and supporting epub (with their own brand of drm of course) would make sense for Amazon. It would streamline the process of getting ebooks from the publishers into kindle users hands. Epub is already the defacto standard used by publishers, even in the US, even if it isn't what most people end up reading. It's why Amazon now accepts epubs directly from publishers which they then convert to mobi. This just adds unnecessary complexity and costs for Amazon.

Sure they'd need to update the kindle platform across the entire range but that's perfectly doable and I'd argue the cost savings would be worth it. Heck kindlegen even embeds the epub source files now when you use it to create a mobi file.

I think moving to epub is just a matter of time for Amazon. It would certainly be good for Kindle users, you'd get better looking books with just a simple firmware update. Can't see a downside to that really.

[TimW]

Originally Posted by deltop

I don't see why Amazon voluntarily killing mobi would be insane. In fact I can see that happening quite easily.

Going purely on their technical merits epub IS a better format than mobi, I can't see how any one can refute that. Killing off mobi and supporting epub (with their own brand of drm of course) would make sense for Amazon. It would streamline the process of getting ebooks from the publishers into kindle users hands. Epub is already the defacto standard used by publishers, even in the US, even if it isn't what most people end up reading. It's why Amazon now accepts epubs directly from publishers which they then convert to mobi. This just adds unnecessary complexity and costs for Amazon.

Sure they'd need to update the kindle platform across the entire range but that's perfectly doable and I'd argue the cost savings would be worth it. Heck kindlegen even embeds the epub source files now when you use it to create a mobi file.

I think moving to epub is just a matter of time for Amazon. It would certainly be good for Kindle users, you'd get better looking books with just a simple firmware update. Can't see a downside to that really.

There are several million Kindle owners. You don't imagine there would be anger and legitimate feelings of betrayal at suddenly being stuck with an orphaned, obsolete product? Amazon's ebook business might very well be doomed because of it. No, that's not hyperbole. The window of opportunity for Amazon to change formats with a minimum amount of chaos has long been closed. What legitimate economic sense would there be in changing formats at this late stage? There is none.

[chas0039]

Originally Posted by TimW

There are several million Kindle owners. You don't imagine there would be anger and legitimate feelings of betrayal at suddenly being stuck with an orphaned, obsolete product? Amazon's ebook business might very well be doomed because of it. No, that's not hyperbole. The window of opportunity for Amazon to change formats with a minimum amount of chaos has long been closed. What legitimate economic sense would there be in changing formats at this late stage? There is none.

As my Grandfather used to say, " You slobbered a bibfull".

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by TimW

There are several million Kindle owners. You don't imagine there would be anger and legitimate feelings of betrayal at suddenly being stuck with an orphaned, obsolete product? Amazon's ebook business might very well be doomed because of it. No, that's not hyperbole. The window of opportunity for Amazon to change formats with a minimum amount of chaos has long been closed. What legitimate economic sense would there be in changing formats at this late stage? There is none.

Amazon already support two formats. And have already silently converted books from one format to another.

They could easily start supporting ePub rendering on new Kindles, while still supporting their two existing formats.

For 99% of Amazon's customers, their ebooks aren't Mobipokcet format, but Kindle format. If the Kindle format suddenly becomes Topaz, Mobipocket or ePub instead of (as at present) Topaz or Mobipocket, they simply won't notice.

And over a few years, most new books will be ePub format, with automatic conversion to Mobipocket for the dwindling proportion of older Kindles that can only render Mobipocket/Topaz.

Not really a problem at all.

[TimW]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Amazon already support two formats. And have already silently converted books from one format to another.

They could easily start supporting ePub rendering on new Kindles, while still supporting their two existing formats.

For 99% of Amazon's customers, their ebooks aren't Mobipokcet format, but Kindle format. If the Kindle format suddenly becomes Topaz, Mobipocket or ePub instead of (as at present) Topaz or Mobipocket, they simply won't notice.

And over a few years, most new books will be ePub format, with automatic conversion to Mobipocket for the dwindling proportion of older Kindles that can only render Mobipocket/Topaz.

Not really a problem at all.

Mobi and AZW are essentially the same format. AZW1 or Topaz is occasionally used when glyphs are needed to render a book with special symbols (eg math equations). They are related formats. Considering the original Kindle isn't able to even read PDF documents natively, you're suggesting that R&D to enable all existing Kindles to read a completely new format would be a wise use of resources? I think the fallacy is in assuming that there will be only one format of ebook. Is there only one digital music format? Is there only one digital movie format? Will there ever be? Probably not.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by TimW

Mobi and AZW are essentially the same format. AZW1 or Topaz is occasionally used when glyphs are needed to render a book with special symbols (eg math equations). They are related formats. Considering the original Kindle isn't able to even read PDF documents natively, you're suggesting that R&D to enable all existing Kindles to read a completely new format would be a wise use of resources? I think the fallacy is in assuming that there will be only one format of ebook. Is there only one digital music format? Is there only one digital movie format? Will there ever be? Probably not.

Mobipocket and Topaz are completely different file formats. They are really not related at all. Topaz isn't just Mobipocket with some extra glyphs.

I don't suggest that older Kindles will get new firmware, just that future models of Kindle will be able to render ePub format.

If a book that's only been submitted in ePub format is transferred to an older Kindle, I'd expect that Amazon would do an auto-conversion to Mobipocket. They already have the software to do that pretty well. The vast majority of customers don't copy files between Kindles, they just download again from the Amazon servers.

[TimW]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Mobipocket and Topaz are completely different file formats. They are really not related at all. Topaz isn't just Mobipocket with some extra glyphs.

I don't suggest that older Kindles will get new firmware, just that future models of Kindle will be able to render ePub format.

If a book that's only been submitted in ePub format is transferred to an older Kindle, I'd expect that Amazon would do an auto-conversion to Mobipocket. They already have the software to do that pretty well. The vast majority of customers don't copy files between Kindles, they just download again from the Amazon servers.

Has Amazon done anything to lead you to believe they're ready to join the ePub religion? Their roundabout way of offering library books suggests just the opposite: entrenchment. Again, there's no sound economic reason for Amazon to switch to ePub.

I believe we are at an impasse.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by TimW

Again, there's no sound economic reason for Amazon to switch to ePub.

I believe we are at an impasse.

I have no inside knowledge. But it seems to me that Amazon have a choice of moving to ePub or extending Mobipocket. The former seems to be a lot simpler, as extending Mobipocket would also require getting publishers to support the new features.

I don't think Amazon can just stick with current Mobipocket. It's OK for novels, (although even there it has limitations), but it's not good enough for many book formatting requirements.

I think that in five years all ebook reading devices will be supporting ePub. But unless DRM goes away, they will still not be interoperable. The big advantage will be for publishers, who'll only need to produce one ebook format.

[TimW]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I think that in five years all ebook reading devices will be supporting ePub. But unless DRM goes away, they will still not be interoperable. The big advantage will be for publishers, who'll only need to produce one ebook format.

Another possibility is that ePub and Mobi will both have vanished with something new taking their places. Perhaps the world economy will collapse and we'll revert to dtbs. Time will tell, pdurrant, time will tell.