Used book stores, good or evil?

[orlok]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

Furthermore, the author WAS paid! Libraries don't get their books for free unless the book was donated. That donated book was originally purchased by someone, so again, the author has been paid.

And on top of that, here in the UK, the author gets a royalty every time their book is checked out from libraries. I would like to see this practise universally adopted.

Going back to the used book shop question, one of my favourite places on earth is Hay-on-Wye, a "kingdom" on the England/Wales border which is home to a plethora of second-hand book shops, and is also host to a yearly literary festival, and many other literary events. I believe this environment and its events spin off a huge amount of publicity for authors and their books (much of it is televised), resulting in increased sales.

I believe that any outlet that encourages reading and spreads the word, so to speak, has to be beneficial to the industry in the long run.

[neilmarr]

The difference between second-hand books and second-hand cars, etc, is that a second hand book can be on sale at extremely low cost within a few days while publisher and author are still trying hard to at least break even on a newly released work.

Books beyond that first flush of youth profit in second-hand sale from wider readership and promotional value, those sold second-hand while a book is fresh might well undermine the 'success' of a book's initial sales performance to detrimental effect by reducing the enthusiasm level of publisher and author to produce more new works.

Having said that, I am not at war with second-hand bookshops and certainly stand firmly behind the campaign to save libraries. However, there should be an informal decency limit on when a book can be fairly 'sold' as a pre-used product; a business in itself as opposed to fair lending and sharing, which is a basic right I support heartily. Neil

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by orlok

I believe that any outlet that encourages reading and spreads the word, so to speak, has to be beneficial to the industry in the long run.

Again, I agree!!

Plus as others have mentioned, it can lead to so much more. On my recent trip I purchased the first book in the Cat Who series by Lilian Jackson Braun. If I enjoy the book, I have every intention of buying the others, most likely in e-book format; especially, since the 2nd hand store is too far to visit on a regular bases.

[montsnmags]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

The difference between second-hand books and second-hand cars, etc, is that a second hand book can be on sale at extremely low cost within a few days while publisher and author are still trying hard to at least break even on a newly released work.

Books beyond that first flush of youth profit in second-hand sale from wider readership and promotional value, those sold second-hand while a book is fresh might well undermine the 'success' of a book's initial sales performance to detrimental effect by reducing the enthusiasm level of publisher and author to produce more new works.

Having said that, I am not at war with second-hand bookshops and certainly stand firmly behind the campaign to save libraries. However, there should be an informal decency limit on when a book can be fairly 'sold' as a pre-used product; a business in itself as opposed to fair lending and sharing, which is a basic right I support heartily. Neil

The point I was trying to make is that, as with your second paragraph's "might", we can make assumptions as to the consequences of a secondhand market, but they are just assumptions. There are obviously some differences with vehicles, perhaps fewer with computer games, but the differences don't negate the hypothesis.

That is to say, it is insufficient to presuppose what the consequence of the secondhand market is - new or old book - to an author or publisher. It is not unreasonable to hypothesize. But, as with my premised hypothesis, and yours, all cards fall on the data. Until then we are saying "It's common sense that..." or "Logicially, you'd think that..." and possibly falling at the first data analysis. As with the semi-example I gave, the premise behind that was that the creators/suppliers generally assumed that the secondhand market was "lost sales", when in fact a strong secondhand market was increasing first sales. Fighting that secondhand market would then be shooting oneself in the wallet.

Cheers,
Marc

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

Furthermore, the author WAS paid! Libraries don't get their books for free unless the book was donated. That donated book was originally purchased by someone, so again, the author has been paid.


Thought: Why was the author at the library? Was she "stealing" someone else's work?

Agreed, said author was...well, not in her right mind at the time. The author wasn't at the library. What happened was, this girl commented on the author's blog that she was (whatever number) in line for the author's latest book at the library. The author came back with snark about how she hates libraries and every time someone checks one of her books out instead of buying a copy they're stealing from her.

[TGS]

I have never really understood, what I take to be the American, phrase, "get over yourself". However, having read this thread I feel that I could now use the phrase and, according to one definition, knowing what something means amounts to knowing how to use it. So, thank you to the writers mentioned here, and get over yourselves!

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

Agreed, said author was...well, not in her right mind at the time. The author wasn't at the library. What happened was, this girl commented on the author's blog that she was (whatever number) in line for the author's latest book at the library. The author came back with snark about how she hates libraries and every time someone checks one of her books out instead of buying a copy they're stealing from her.

Ah. Okay.

[Fbone]

That was the first time I ever heard a published author upset that their book was available in libraries. With 19,000 public libraries in the US there is potential for large sales and widespread free advertising.

Sometimes used book stores are the only place to find out-of-print books.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by Fbone

That was the first time I ever heard a published author upset that their book was available in libraries. With 19,000 public libraries in the US there is potential for large sales and widespread free advertising.

Sometimes used book stores are the only place to find out-of-print books.

It was fairly shocking, both to the girl it happened to, and the groups she told the story in. Most authors at least SAY they love libraries, whether they actually do or not.

[neilmarr]

You're correct, of course, Marc. There's no data currently available to say for sure what effect used book sales may have on the early sales record of a newly released title (otherwise I would have quoted a source rather than use the word 'might'). I was expressing, as you so politely point out, a mere supposition. I felt it a realistic possibility, though, and worth considering. After all, until reliable statistics became available, it was only supposition that online book sales and, later, ebooks might severely curtail the brick-and-mortar book trade. Best wishes. Neil

PS: Re-reading this paragraph before posting, I realise that there is a difference. In the case of used books possibly unfairly competing with new release of a title, there has been plenty of time (decades at least) for statistics to be drawn up by anyone interested and with the necessary resources to conduct a study. Again supposition: perhaps this rather obvious lack of data might indicate that major publishers see the early re-sale of new titles as of little significance, which does pretty well blow my casual hypothesis out of the water, dunnit! One of the great values of this forum is that reasoned arguments for and against can influence opinion. Not for the first time, it's worked in making me think again. Many thanks, folks. N

[montsnmags]

Originally Posted by neilmarr

You're correct, of course, Marc. There's no data currently available to say for sure what effect used book sales may have on the early sales record of a newly released title (otherwise I would have quoted a source rather than use the word 'might'). I was expressing, as you so politely point out, a mere supposition. I felt it a realistic possibility, though, and worth considering. After all, until reliable statistics became available, it was only supposition that online book sales and, later, ebooks might severely curtail the brick-and-mortar book trade. Best wishes. Neil

PS: Re-reading this paragraph before posting, I realise that there is a difference. In the case of used books possibly unfairly competing with new release of a title, there has been plenty of time (decades at least) for statistics to be drawn up by anyone interested and with the necessary resources to conduct a study. Again supposition: perhaps this rather obvious lack of data might indicate that major publishers see the early re-sale of new titles as of little significance, which does pretty well blow my casual hypothesis out of the water, dunnit! One of the great values of this forum is that reasoned arguments for and against can influence opinion. Not for the first time, it's worked in making me think again. Many thanks, folks. N

I don't think your "casual hypothesis" is blown out of the water - I think it underestimates the value of your own thoughts to assume that major publishers at all times make decisions based on data rather than what they suppose is accurate (as we know, many, including I think both of us, would argue that DRM is a significant example of this).

And I felt and feel somewhat presumptuous in having offered my maybe devil's-advocate response to you of anyone, but on the other hand I wanted to because your experience and professional practice is to be respected (and thus, I was interested in your response which, likewise, came through in "making me think again").

Thank-you, Neil. It's always good talking. And all is grist for the mill.

Cheers,
Marc

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

As a fan of reusing and recycling, I see used book stores as a way to keep a perfectly good product out of a landfill and in the hands of someone who can use/enjoy it. The more people who recycle it, the better, as far as the planet is concerned; if it ends up trashed after 10 people have read it, at least that beats 10 books in the trash.

Of course, as a writer, yes, I wish I could somehow profit off each sale. I also wish my car could drive itself, so I could eat and talk on my cellphone in peace. C'est la vie.

Fortunately, writers now have a way to keep all those used books from diminishing their potential sales: Don't sell print. (That also has the virtue of making sure nothing ends up in the landfill.)

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

As a fan of reusing and recycling, I see used book stores as a way to keep a perfectly good product out of a landfill and in the hands of someone who can use/enjoy it. The more people who recycle it, the better, as far as the planet is concerned; if it ends up trashed after 10 people have read it, at least that beats 10 books in the trash.

Of course, as a writer, yes, I wish I could somehow profit off each sale. I also wish my car could drive itself, so I could eat and talk on my cellphone in peace. C'est la vie.

Fortunately, writers now have a way to keep all those used books from diminishing their potential sales: Don't sell print. (That also has the virtue of making sure nothing ends up in the landfill.)

Good post!

[Greg Anos]

Any durable good will create it's own used market, whether you'e talking books or bricks.

In non-I.P monopoly markets, the use vs. new market is decided based on cost, availability, and remaining durability. Nobody complains.

In the I.P. monopoly markets, there is an extra value placed on the product, exclusive of the physical product itself. That value gets stripped off in the the used markets for such products, reducing the value to the typical non-I.P. monopoly market values. That makes them a more serious competitor to the new product, due to the inherent pricing advantage of stripping off the I.P. value. The people reaping this extra value, complain a lot....

[neilmarr]

Good points, Steven and Ralph. And thanks, Marc. I appreciate your posts, too. I love to see threads developing into thought-proving a exchange of ideas. It's such a pity that a few tend to deteriorate into rants and personal insult through dogmatic stance on a point.

Flexibility and appreciation of differing points of view is an invaluable quality in most members here. It can result in changes of mind, adjustment (major or minor) of personal policies and -- always -- serves to broaden the outlook on any subject under discussion. Very best wishes, folks. Neil