Borders in USA to close

[Fbone]

The Books-A-Million deal to buy 30 Borders fell through. It may have saved up to 1500 jobs.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/126181683.html

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by Boston

That was exactly the point I was trying to make...if you enjoy spending time in a store (whether it be a chain or independent, a book store or not), you need to support it.

In my local Borders, the employees didn't know which in section I could find JD Salinger, Walt Whitman, or Harriet Beecher-Stove, or for that matter how to spell either name when they went to look them up. I don't expect them to be experts on everything in the whole store, but just like I would expect someone who works in a record store to know Van Halen and Jimi Hendrix, or someone who works in a video game store to know about Halo and Grand Theft auto, I do expect employees in a bookstore, even a large franchise one, to know the basics of what they try to sell to me.

After that disappointing attempt to find literary classics, I stopped buying books there.

[Davidpf]

I was definitely a little sad to see the news. I loved going to the Borders by my house and just browsing around for an hour. I went a few days after they made the announcement and the liquidation sale was kind of disappointing. Maybe as it gets closer to the end, they will offer bigger discounts.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

It doesn't matter about "other" grocery stores, I'm talking about a specific Borders.

This is, perhaps, another issue: if your Mega-Chain is so micromanaged that your franchise outlets can't say "hey, we've got a LOT of traffic in here on Sundays, let's adjust our hours accordingly", then you aren't going to stay in business either.

I'm not talking about your parents' store. I'm sure they managed it to the best of their ability -- certainly, I'm not arguing that all stores must be open on Sunday. I'm arguing for stores to experiment, try new things, and not stagnate unnecessarily if it can at all be avoided. That's all.

All I am saying is, sometimes, looks can be deceiving. The area may have some busy shops at that time, but for that store it wasn't enough. My point was, different places, and different types of stores, have varying traffic patterns. You can have an uberbusy place right next to one that is dead. It may have been that way.

As far as store hours, I do know that a few of the Borders near me did have slightly different hours from one another.

Originally Posted by Pinecone

Lots of things going on.

At least the US, the slack of Border's closing will be taken up by Barnes and Noble, which is likley to be across the street or even next door.

Without all the information you cannot be sure whether not being open was helping or hurting. Was it tried? For how long (it takes people a while to realize)? At what staffing level (maybe fewer staff for the first 2 hours)? Did it effect the overall sales picture for the day (were the early people ones who would come in later, so no additional customers)?

But it interesting that there was no market for an early Sunday monring hardware store, until the big home warehouse stares were open early on Sunday..

On that, I guess that most people got used to having no hardware stores open then, and so just had their schedules set around it, so on the handful that were open early, they didnt have much in the way of business because people didnt expect them to be open.

As far as B&N picking up the slack, I dunno. In the St louis area, there was 11 Borders, and 9 B&N. 4 of the Borders had a B&N near by. For me, it went from a 5 minute drive, to a half hour, for the nearest book store now that Borders is going under. And I live in the metro area.

[mcooke66]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

You live in one of those nice atheist communes that we have so many of in America, huh?

I kid, but definitely the "not on Sundays" originally came from churchiness. Keeping it alive now out of tradition and never questioning if it's really saving or losing you money isn't the answer.

I know, I know but I cannot help it.



You seem to be saying that Borders and other retailers are not open early on Sundays without any thought to the potential sales, only out of tradition. I find that hard to believe, usually its the only thing they care about. I think they keep it going based on reality.

Large numbers of people are not up running errands on Sunday mornings due to church, sleeping in, futzing around the house in pajamas etc..

I completely agree about the nonsensical liquor laws etc.. I cannot go car shopping on Sundays because bargaining was not allowed on "the lords day". That is just left over from another age, today it is protected by the people who work in auto dealers because they want their Sundays off, not because they believe you should not be bargaining on a Sunday.

Religion may be the origin but IMO it plays a tiny role in the decisions large corporations are making about business hours today.

and I will stop there since it has nothing to do with this thread, but it is an interesting topic.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by mcooke66

You seem to be saying that Borders and other retailers are not open early on Sundays without any thought to the potential sales, only out of tradition. I find that hard to believe, usually its the only thing they care about. I think they keep it going based on reality.

You don't think big brands go based on tradition and inertia and "we've always done it this way"? Because that's ALL I see in the current big publishing house fights against eBooks as a new and scary medium that will cut into profits, encourage piracy, and end life as we know it.

[Sil_liS]

I have two things to say about the whole thing with the line in front of Borders at 10 in the morning on a Sunday:
1. The people in the line must know how to read so the only reason to stay in front of the shop an hour before it opens was to make sure that they get the deal. That means that if the shop would have normally opened at 9, they would have been there at 8.
2. Books are heavy. If you go and buy more than one, it's best if you go at the end of a shopping trip. You can also think that you could go to the shop in the morning and look for the books that you might want to buy, and return later to actually get them, but that just increases the possibility of deciding to buy the books online, since they are cheaper anyway.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

You don't think big brands go based on tradition and inertia and "we've always done it this way"? Because that's ALL I see in the current big publishing house fights against eBooks as a new and scary medium that will cut into profits, encourage piracy, and end life as we know it.

Retailers are different beasts than the publishers. They know their business survives based on customer traffic. I mean, why else would so many stores start opening up on Thanksgiving day itself now, instead of just waiting till Black Friday? Retailers also have a chance to get in on ebooks, so it doesn't scare them as much. I mean, thats why there is ebook download kiosks in stores, and stores are pushing readers as well.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Retailers are different beasts than the publishers. They know their business survives based on customer traffic. I mean, why else would so many stores start opening up on Thanksgiving day itself now, instead of just waiting till Black Friday? Retailers also have a chance to get in on ebooks, so it doesn't scare them as much. I mean, thats why there is ebook download kiosks in stores, and stores are pushing readers as well.

*throws up hands*

Fine. Borders did everything it possibly could to drive traffic to their stores and the fact that I spend thousands of dollars on books per year and NONE of those dollars at Borders was not their fault but rather me being mean spirited. There is no other explanation.

I maintain that our local Borders did not try to innovate and as far as I can tell depended on sheer inertia to keep their business afloat. There seems to be an argument in this thread that that simply isn't possible because businesses are smarter than that. I disagree. Considering that Borders IS closing, I think Occam's Razor demands a more likely explanation than that they were fated to fail in spite of all their best efforts.

EDIT: And if that seems snippy, well, I find it tiresome to provide REAL examples of how my local Borders could have gotten my business only to hear the circular reasoning that my idea of opening earlier on Sundays COULDN'T have been profitable because if it was they already would have done that. Provide your evidence that businesses always act in a rational, smart manner -- provide something other than just "business are smart 'cause they are businesses", please.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

*throws up hands*

Fine. Borders did everything it possibly could to drive traffic to their stores and the fact that I spend thousands of dollars on books per year and NONE of those dollars at Borders was not their fault but rather me being mean spirited. There is no other explanation.

I maintain that our local Borders did not try to innovate and as far as I can tell depended on sheer inertia to keep their business afloat. There seems to be an argument in this thread that that simply isn't possible because businesses are smarter than that. I disagree. Considering that Borders IS closing, I think Occam's Razor demands a more likely explanation than that they were fated to fail in spite of all their best efforts.

EDIT: And if that seems snippy, well, I find it tiresome to provide REAL examples of how my local Borders could have gotten my business only to hear the circular reasoning that my idea of opening earlier on Sundays COULDN'T have been profitable because if it was they already would have done that. Provide your evidence that businesses always act in a rational, smart manner -- provide something other than just "business are smart 'cause they are businesses", please.

I'm not trying to quarrel with you, I genuinely find this to be an interesting discussion. It says something of the various mindsets based on regions and between business and public. I also respect you, and often agree with your posts.

Borders as a whole didn't innovate. They pissed away what could have been their share of the ebook market, by subcontracting it out. They rarely did much in the way of advertising on a large scale. I mean, earlier in this thread someone commented about how they didn't have sales on a national level at all stores, which isn't true. They just didn't really say it when they did. I'd get an email for being part of the Borders Rewards, and that was it. Even in stores they didn't have banners or anything up to announce the sales. The point of a sale is to draw people in, and if your customers may not know that a sale is going on until they're at the checkout and find out something is cheaper than they were expecting, that isn't doing it right. Hell, and even if you were in the borders rewards, not all rewards members got the same info. There were times when I wouldn't get any thing from them, but my girlfriend did as some sort of reward for buying more books.

As far as the part about the store hours, I just know that the store location could adjust their hours, and so that it was possible they had already tried having it be open earlier and moved away from it. The reason I know that this was possible, is because the one store I traditionally went to shifted store hours. I'm just saying it was possible that they had it at one time open earlier.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

I'm not trying to quarrel with you, I genuinely find this to be an interesting discussion. It says something of the various mindsets based on regions and between business and public. I also respect you, and often agree with your posts.

Borders as a whole didn't innovate. They pissed away what could have been their share of the ebook market, by subcontracting it out. They rarely did much in the way of advertising on a large scale. I mean, earlier in this thread someone commented about how they didn't have sales on a national level at all stores, which isn't true. They just didn't really say it when they did. I'd get an email for being part of the Borders Rewards, and that was it. Even in stores they didn't have banners or anything up to announce the sales. The point of a sale is to draw people in, and if your customers may not know that a sale is going on until they're at the checkout and find out something is cheaper than they were expecting, that isn't doing it right. Hell, and even if you were in the borders rewards, not all rewards members got the same info. There were times when I wouldn't get any thing from them, but my girlfriend did as some sort of reward for buying more books.

As far as the part about the store hours, I just know that the store location could adjust their hours, and so that it was possible they had already tried having it be open earlier and moved away from it. The reason I know that this was possible, is because the one store I traditionally went to shifted store hours. I'm just saying it was possible that they had it at one time open earlier.

Well I agree with you on the point that if you do something (sales, hours-change, etc) and don't ADVERTISE it, then it's the same as if you didn't do it at all.

So I will concede that perhaps at one time in the past 5 years I've shopped at that grocer that perhaps the Borders opened early some Sunday* and they just didn't put a sign out.

* But I will also note that their hours are painted on their door and look like they've been that way for quite some time...

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

So I will concede that perhaps at one time in the past 5 years I've shopped at that grocer that perhaps the Borders opened early some Sunday* and they just didn't put a sign out.

What time did you want them to open?

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

What time did you want them to open?

How about the same time as the other days? That would be 9 am.

On this PARTICULAR visit to the grocery store, this happened:

1. @ 9:30. Arrive at store.
2. @ 9:35 "Oh! Borders! Honey, I want to see the Kobo!"
3. @ 9:40 Husband explains that Ana has 4 eReaders already and that the store doesn't open until 11.
4. Grocery shopping: 1 hour.
5. @10:30. "Oh! Borders! Are they open now? Honey, I want to see the Kobo!"
6. @10:35 Husband patiently explains that the groceries are melting in the 100 degree weather.
7. @10:40 Ana notices 20+ people waiting in 100 degree heat to get into Borders as Husband drives them (Ana and Husband, not the other shoppers) home. Some of the people are peering in the glass doors like hungry zombies. Ana reflects on the irony that Borders is going out of business while people wait in the heat to buy things. Ana enjoys a smug moment of schadefraude before realizing she can't spell that word. Mmmmm... cheesy bread from grocery store. Yum.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

7. @10:40 Ana notices 20+ people waiting in 100 degree heat to get into Borders as Husband drives them (Ana and Husband, not the other shoppers) home. Some of the people are peering in the glass doors like hungry zombies. Ana reflects on the irony that Borders is going out of business while people wait in the heat to buy things. Ana enjoys a smug moment of schadefraude before realizing she can't spell that word. Mmmmm... cheesy bread from grocery store. Yum.

That husband, leaving all those poor shoppers in the heat....

Also, you were close - schadenfreude.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

How about the same time as the other days? That would be 9 am.

Don't know about your neck of the woods, but here in Seattle, Borders opened an hour later on Sundays. In fact, quite few stores around here open later and close earlier on Sundays.