Borders in USA to close

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I'm sad that Borders is closing, because it's a tremendous loss of jobs, but also very frustrated that management didn't do enough to forestall this.

This Sunday we went grocery shopping and -- look! -- there's a big Borders right across the street. Let's go see the new Kobos while we still can!

Oh, look. It's Sunday so the store isn't open until 11. And the groceries in the car are getting hot in the sun. Drat.

There were literally people lining up and on the outside benches -- at least 20 people waiting -- to be let in when the store opened in 30 minutes. And you know that for every one person that bothers to wait, another 5 just go home without bothering.

Apparently that particular Borders felt that catering to the early morning grocery shopping crowd on a weekend was less important than making sure all its employees were GETTIN' RITE WIFF JESUS. Despite the fact that I'll bet half the employees don't go to church and would prefer to get a paycheck to feed their families. Gah.

I doubt it has anything to do with it. I mean, be honest, if you're the sort that you are religious enough to change business hours around church, you'd also be more likely to try and keep the sabbath holy. They probably didn't open until 11, because business that early just wasn't strong enough to make it worth the expense. Yeah, people are off and don't goto work, but at the same time, how many people sleep in on sundays? If your customer base is at church, or sleeping, or just can't be arsed enough to get out of the house any earlier, why be open? As far as the line, well, they're people who wanted to check out the store before it closed and get the good bargains before they sold. Any time you have a store going out of business like that, people line up, regardless of when the store business hours are.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

I doubt it has anything to do with it. I mean, be honest, if you're the sort that you are religious enough to change business hours around church, you'd also be more likely to try and keep the sabbath holy. They probably didn't open until 11, because business that early just wasn't strong enough to make it worth the expense. Yeah, people are off and don't goto work, but at the same time, how many people sleep in on sundays? If your customer base is at church, or sleeping, or just can't be arsed enough to get out of the house any earlier, why be open? As far as the line, well, they're people who wanted to check out the store before it closed and get the good bargains before they sold. Any time you have a store going out of business like that, people line up, regardless of when the store business hours are.

Well, the problem is that I live in a Southern state where everyone just ASSUMES there's no business to be had on Sunday.

Hell, YOU are assuming there was no business to be had on Sunday, even though I am telling you there were 20+ people lined up wanting to get in. And probably another 50+ that simply didn't bother to wait around. (Certainly the grocery store was packed with 200+ folks. How many of those would have trickled in to Borders before and after shopping if they could. And because this is a FANCY WHOLE FOODS store, we get there at the wee hours of the morning because otherwise it's literally too full to move around with any ease.)

The "no business to be had on Sunday" is held as such an article of truth that people ignore reality rather than change their beliefs. Not to pick on you or anything, but if you hear about 20 waiting customers and say "eh, not enough to be worth staffing the store with a couple of folks", then you deserve to close your doors forever because you aren't trying at that point.

And by "you", I mean Borders.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Well, the problem is that I live in a Southern state where everyone just ASSUMES there's no business to be had on Sunday.

Hell, YOU are assuming there was no business to be had on Sunday, even though I am telling you there were 20+ people lined up wanting to get in. And probably another 50+ that simply didn't bother to wait around. (Certainly the grocery store was packed with 200+ folks. How many of those would have trickled in to Borders before and after shopping if they could. And because this is a FANCY WHOLE FOODS store, we get there at the wee hours of the morning because otherwise it's literally too full to move around with any ease.)

The "no business to be had on Sunday" is held as such an article of truth that people ignore reality rather than change their beliefs. Not to pick on you or anything, but if you hear about 20 waiting customers and say "eh, not enough to be worth staffing the store with a couple of folks", then you deserve to close your doors forever because you aren't trying at that point.

And by "you", I mean Borders.

Yeah, there was a line that day, because they were closing, but how many would have been there normally? When my family had our store, we ended up closing on sundays, because there just wasn't enough business. Saturday had shortened hours as well. Some other nearby stores would be busy, notably the grocery stores, but most were a ghost town. In my experience, weekends, people often hurry up and do their chores, so they can do other things. If they're out shopping, do they also want to stop off and look at other stores on the way home, or get the crap done so they can watch a movie, or see the ballgame?

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Yeah, there was a line that day, because they were closing, but how many would have been there normally? When my family had our store, we ended up closing on sundays, because there just wasn't enough business. Saturday had shortened hours as well. Some other nearby stores would be busy, notably the grocery stores, but most were a ghost town. In my experience, weekends, people often hurry up and do their chores, so they can do other things. If they're out shopping, do they also want to stop off and look at other stores on the way home, or get the crap done so they can watch a movie, or see the ballgame?

In *my* experience, yes, people want to shop while they are out shopping.

In seriousness, my husband and I do ALL our shopping in one day, on one trip, always on the weekend. (Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, depending on which day we have off that week.) If a store isn't open on those days, or isn't open during the hours we shop, we can't shop there. Period.

The amount of stores closed on Sunday mornings is, well, utterly silly in my personal opinion. I've already said that particular grocery store turns over several hundred customers in the early morning hours, but, eh, you want to ignore that and so did the Borders across the street. In all honesty, neither of us can prove our point. I'm just saying that there's a reason that we never shopped there and that reason is because it was rarely open when we were in the area.

[anamardoll]

Also, the "oh, people only showed up to wait in the 100 degree heat because there was a SALE" argument doesn't hold water because it proves people will show up for a sale!!

That's the only time in that Border's history that I ever saw a store-wide sale advertised. When your FIRST store-wide sale is your Going Out Of Business sale? You deserve to go out of business because you don't know the first thing about marketing. As I say, it's frustrating.

(And I want to reiterate that I don't WANT Borders to go out of business. Just that it's not surprising.)

(And regarding the power of sales: I just bought a Kindle book that I would NEVER buy regularly because I've already read it as an ARC and gave it a 3-star "meh" review. I was DONE with that book. But, oh look -- 99 cents on Amazon, and now my collection will be complete! 1-click buy. Sales are powerful things. )

[mcooke66]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Apparently that particular Borders felt that catering to the early morning grocery shopping crowd on a weekend was less important than making sure all its employees were GETTIN' RITE WIFF JESUS. Despite the fact that I'll bet half the employees don't go to church and would prefer to get a paycheck to feed their families. Gah.

The Best Buys where I live do not open on Sundays until 11:00. I am pretty sure it is not for religious reasons. And yes I hate that because I do not sleep in but most everyone I know is not running errands on Sunday before 10 or 11 regardless of the reason, church or slumber. I think it was purely a business decision, and has not seemed to hurt Best Buys sales so probably played no role in their demise.

Borders failed for so many reasons its hard to believe they could consistently loose money for 5 years and not address the problems. B&N has made great strides to remain relevant and so far it "appears" to be working, I wonder if the closing of Borders will give them the breathing room to complete the transformation.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by mcooke66

The Best Buys where I live do not open on Sundays until 11:00. I am pretty sure it is not for religious reasons.

You live in one of those nice atheist communes that we have so many of in America, huh?

I kid, but definitely the "not on Sundays" originally came from churchiness. Keeping it alive now out of tradition and never questioning if it's really saving or losing you money isn't the answer.

Originally Posted by mcooke66

And yes I hate that because I do not sleep in but most everyone I know is not running errands on Sunday before 10 or 11 regardless of the reason, church or slumber. I think it was purely a business decision, and has not seemed to hurt Best Buys sales so probably played no role in their demise.

Best Buy isn't exactly raking in the cash these days, either, as far as I know.

And, again, it's really not down to "oh, we're not losing THAT much money with the Sunday thing". The issue is: Are you losing ANY money? If the answer is "yes", then you need to do something about that like, say, have a skeleton crew in on Sunday mornings. Think! Innovate! That's the only way a chain stays alive. This isn't rocket science, it's just not being a lazy, inertia-driven dinosaur.

Originally Posted by mcooke66

Borders failed for so many reasons its hard to believe they could consistently loose money for 5 years and not address the problems. B&N has made great strides to remain relevant and so far it "appears" to be working, I wonder if the closing of Borders will give them the breathing room to complete the transformation.

Agreed, there were a lot of stupid business decisions here.

[SCION]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

...the "not on Sundays" originally came from churchiness. Keeping it alive now out of tradition and never questioning if it's really saving or losing you money isn't the answer.
...

Indeed!!! Where I live you can't even buy alcohol on Sunday morning. Must wait until noon. Reason why: Most church services are over by that time. In other words, you shouldn't be consuming booze during that time. Get your butt in a pew. So, if I want to have wine with my evening meal, I must return to the store later.

[Enkidu of Abydos]

Originally Posted by James_Wilde

When I saw your thread title I thought the TSA had decided to stop foreign travel. Shades of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale".

I thought it's some Mexican immigrant witchhunt again...

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by SCION

Indeed!!! Where I live you can't even buy alcohol on Sunday morning. Must wait until noon. Reason why: Most church services are over by that time. In other words, you shouldn't be consuming booze during that time. Get your butt in a pew. So, if I want to have wine with my evening meal, I must return to the store later.

+1

This drives me crazy. My husband and I don't drink, but we DO watch the Food Network and last year I tried to buy a little 6 oz bottle of wine for a steak marinade. The cashier had to inform me that I couldn't buy it, but we could "wait 10 minutes" until 11 am, and THEN we could buy it.

Meanwhile, the line was backing up, and I was MORTIFIED. I declined to wait, and cursed my stupid dry state all the way home.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by SCION

Indeed!!! Where I live you can't even buy alcohol on Sunday morning. Must wait until noon. Reason why: Most church services are over by that time. In other words, you shouldn't be consuming booze during that time. Get your butt in a pew. So, if I want to have wine with my evening meal, I must return to the store later.

Well at least you have that option. If you want to buy some booze on Sundays in MA, you have to jump over the border to NH!

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Also, the "oh, people only showed up to wait in the 100 degree heat because there was a SALE" argument doesn't hold water because it proves people will show up for a sale!!

That's the only time in that Border's history that I ever saw a store-wide sale advertised. When your FIRST store-wide sale is your Going Out Of Business sale? You deserve to go out of business because you don't know the first thing about marketing. As I say, it's frustrating.

(And I want to reiterate that I don't WANT Borders to go out of business. Just that it's not surprising.)

(And regarding the power of sales: I just bought a Kindle book that I would NEVER buy regularly because I've already read it as an ARC and gave it a 3-star "meh" review. I was DONE with that book. But, oh look -- 99 cents on Amazon, and now my collection will be complete! 1-click buy. Sales are powerful things. )

I would routinely get emails from them about sales. It wasn't an uncommon thing, they just didn't have a bunch of press for it like they have now.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

In *my* experience, yes, people want to shop while they are out shopping.

In seriousness, my husband and I do ALL our shopping in one day, on one trip, always on the weekend. (Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, depending on which day we have off that week.) If a store isn't open on those days, or isn't open during the hours we shop, we can't shop there. Period.

The amount of stores closed on Sunday mornings is, well, utterly silly in my personal opinion. I've already said that particular grocery store turns over several hundred customers in the early morning hours, but, eh, you want to ignore that and so did the Borders across the street. In all honesty, neither of us can prove our point. I'm just saying that there's a reason that we never shopped there and that reason is because it was rarely open when we were in the area.

That grocery store is busy, but how many other stores are busy then. Like I said, for my family's business, we stopped being open then because there just wasn't enough business to justify it. If we had people coming in, and wanting to buy, like during the week, we'd have been open. Friends who own or manage stores have had similar experiences.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Hellmark

That grocery store is busy, but how many other stores are busy then. Like I said, for my family's business, we stopped being open then because there just wasn't enough business to justify it. If we had people coming in, and wanting to buy, like during the week, we'd have been open. Friends who own or manage stores have had similar experiences.

It doesn't matter about "other" grocery stores, I'm talking about a specific Borders.

This is, perhaps, another issue: if your Mega-Chain is so micromanaged that your franchise outlets can't say "hey, we've got a LOT of traffic in here on Sundays, let's adjust our hours accordingly", then you aren't going to stay in business either.

I'm not talking about your parents' store. I'm sure they managed it to the best of their ability -- certainly, I'm not arguing that all stores must be open on Sunday. I'm arguing for stores to experiment, try new things, and not stagnate unnecessarily if it can at all be avoided. That's all.

[Pinecone]

Lots of things going on.

At least the US, the slack of Border's closing will be taken up by Barnes and Noble, which is likley to be across the street or even next door.

Without all the information you cannot be sure whether not being open was helping or hurting. Was it tried? For how long (it takes people a while to realize)? At what staffing level (maybe fewer staff for the first 2 hours)? Did it effect the overall sales picture for the day (were the early people ones who would come in later, so no additional customers)?

But it interesting that there was no market for an early Sunday monring hardware store, until the big home warehouse stares were open early on Sunday..

[Boston]

Originally Posted by Pinecone

There are good and not so good small indie bookstores.

There are good and not so good bigger stores.

Patronize and support the good stores (regardless of size) and don't do business with the not so good stores.

That was exactly the point I was trying to make...if you enjoy spending time in a store (whether it be a chain or independent, a book store or not), you need to support it. The article I read interviewed customers in a store with high traffic...many told how they liked spending time there but never bought because they could get books cheaper on-line or read for free there. Likewise, we want to keep jobs/wages but buy where things are made cheaper.

One of the problems I found with Borders is that they acquired stores but didn't seem to go to a job integrating them into a brand. The footprint and setup varied widely. While I loved the setup at some of the stores, there were many that I wouldn't go out of my way for.