Excellent and free, fantasy in the style of Robert Jordan

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I can't guarantee it will be good as it's spur of the moment, but here you go.

"I can't stand it anymore," John said, slamming the book down on the table.

vs.

"I can't stand it anymore," John exclaimed frustratedly.

In the former, I'm not telling you how John's feeling, I'm letting his action of slamming the book tell you he's angry and frustrated. In the latter I'm telling you how he said the words and what he felt.

so when you say "dialog tags" you mean like "exclaimed", "cried", "shouted", "murmured"... ? if editors really *are* encouraging writers to use "said" in place of ALL these tags (and countless others i have not listed) i think that is pretty lamentable !! why actively encourage the impoverishment of the language ?? "exclaimed" does not mean the same as "said" *or* as "murmured" and it conveys a completely different tone. i don't say you can't or shouldn't complement these "tags" by action, as "slamming the book down" is very expressive ; but people's vocabularies are tending to shrink progressively already, why hasten this ? english is a rich and varied language, i would think it is in the publisher's best interest (and everyone else's) to encourage writers to take advantage of this.

i can remember reading a story written by a friend of mine (non professional) : at every line, he said the character "reached" somewhere / something (parvenir). when i pointed out that he used the word "reached" a lot (too much...), he argued that it was to avoid using the word "got" too much, and vary the language. but ironically he ended up doing exactly what he wanted to avoid, with a different word. i think the more different ways a writer knows how to express something, the better... it makes for more nuanced and precise writing.

[GeoffC]

"I can't stand it anymore," John said, slamming the book down on the table.

vs.

"I can't stand it anymore," John exclaimed frustratedly.

The second reads rather clumsily imho , in other words - to me - it doesn't flow ....

but there would be nothing wrong with :

" I can't stand it anymore ," John exclaimed , and then frustratedly slammed the book down onto the table ."

?

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

The second reads rather clumsily imho , in other words - to me - it doesn't flow ....

but there would be nothing wrong with :

" I can't stand it anymore," John exclaimed, and then frustratedly slammed the book down onto the table ."

?

or even, " I can't stand it anymore," John exclaimed, slamming the book down onto the table."

which is what i was thinking of... i agree, the second one *as it is there* reads rather awkwardly. but i don't think "exclaim" is the real culprit.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

or even, " I can't stand it anymore," John exclaimed, slamming the book down onto the table."

which is what i was thinking of... i agree, the second one *as it is there* reads rather awkwardly. but i don't think "exclaim" is the real culprit.

I agree , the " exclaim " is an accepted form of speech , I feel it is more to do with the use of both exclaimed and frustratedly together .

( But then again , that's a comment from someone who struggled frustratingly to pass English Language and miserably failed English Literature ........ )

[kaas]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

From what I have seen so far, the writing style is rather rough. It needs someone to help the author polish it up.

Yes,
this is one of the disadvantage of having no editor. Fels writing does mature with the books, but even at the end there are some -not many, but some- rough spots. Luckily that did not spoil the story for me.
cheers,
kaas

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

so when you say "dialog tags" you mean like "exclaimed", "cried", "shouted", "murmured"... ? if editors really *are* encouraging writers to use "said" in place of ALL these tags (and countless others i have not listed) i think that is pretty lamentable !! why actively encourage the impoverishment of the language ?? "exclaimed" does not mean the same as "said" *or* as "murmured" and it conveys a completely different tone. i don't say you can't or shouldn't complement these "tags" by action, as "slamming the book down" is very expressive ; but people's vocabularies are tending to shrink progressively already, why hasten this ? english is a rich and varied language, i would think it is in the publisher's best interest (and everyone else's) to encourage writers to take advantage of this.

i can remember reading a story written by a friend of mine (non professional) : at every line, he said the character "reached" somewhere / something (parvenir). when i pointed out that he used the word "reached" a lot (too much...), he argued that it was to avoid using the word "got" too much, and vary the language. but ironically he ended up doing exactly what he wanted to avoid, with a different word. i think the more different ways a writer knows how to express something, the better... it makes for more nuanced and precise writing.

I hope you'll bear with me as I veer.

Writing fiction well is a balancing act. The writer has to write both well and unobtrusively, because the reader cannot get lost in the story if they are marveling about how well it's written.

Isaac Asimov, a champion of what's called the transparent style, used to rewrite any sentence that he wrote that struck him as really exceptionally good. His point was he wanted the reader focused on what he was saying, not how he was saying it.

The advantage of 'said' over any other dialog tag is that it's the most transparent. It's unobtrusive and the eye just slides over it. This is not true of other tags. I looked at a random sampling of a chapter in the middle of one of the books in question and saw half a dozen examples of 'replied' used in succession. Most of those sentences should have been rewritten with either said or perhaps no dialog tag at all. It actually has to do with the same issue you had with reached in your friend's story. Because many novels have so much speech, dialog tags have to be re-used, and because the other ones do stand out more it can often lead to signs of over-use.

Using any tag except 'said' because it's seen as boring is normally a sign of an amateur rather than a professional. The best approach is usually considered to be to use other tags in moderation so as not to either over-use them or dilute their impact.

Said shouldn't be the only tag, but it should be the most common one.

[Ordinaryuser]

Thanks for pointing out this series! It has been delightful so far and while I am not an editor, I find his writing style very much like Robert Jordans. Althought I am only up to page 75 (on medium font in the Sony lrf format), it seems to be very well written and is the type of book I enjoy very much.

Thanks again!

[kaas]

I am glad you like it - but wait untill you read further, it gets better!

[Redcard]

"Said" replacements are just overused and the result is under effective.

For example, look at your daily conversation. Tell me how many times someone said something airily or exclaimed frustratedly just on the basis of their words? You don't know people are frustrated by their WORDS they say. You know they are frustrated by what they show to you.

And that's one of the key points of writing. Show, don't tell.

[Ordinaryuser]

Well, I'm up to 3/4 of the way through the first book and I'm a sold puppy on Fel's writing. Very good imagination and original contest. I have read all of Robert Jordan's, Robin Hobbs, Ramond Feists, George R. R. Martin (along with most other great SF and fantasy writers) and I think this author could be right up there with them from what I've seen. Just my humble opinion.

[tsgreer]

"I understand what Lemurion means," he ejaculated.

Yes, I've read and noticed that just using "said" flows much better. And by the way, I have read way too many PG books where someone ejaculates their surprise. Freaks me out every time.

[kaas]

Originally Posted by Ordinaryuser

Well, I'm up to 3/4 of the way through the first book and I'm a sold puppy on Fel's writing.

So did you finish the book? What do you think now? Do also try his scifi book -unrealistic physics, but a nice read nonetheless

[Taylor514ce]

"So, then she like, goes, 'No way', and I go, 'Chuh, yeah, way!', and then he was all, 'kewl'", she exclaimed blondely.

[Ordinaryuser]

Originally Posted by kaas

So did you finish the book? What do you think now? Do also try his scifi book -unrealistic physics, but a nice read nonetheless

Yes, I finished the book and am well into the second book, The Questing Game. Still enjoy his writing very much and expect to finish the series. I can see where an editor would help because of occasional rough spots, but it does not detract from the great imagination and flow of the stories. I have been reading the books almost constantly (being retired lets me do that). I also do that with other good writers. Sometimes he reminds me of Mercedes Lackey's characterizations but his characters seem unique in most respects.
And on his SF book, what's a little unrealistic physics when you're reading for entertainment. I read for the pleasure and enjoyment and am not trying to be an editor. I appreciate anyone who is willing to put his writing on the net for our enjoyment.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by tsgreer

"I understand what Lemurion means," he ejaculated.

Yes, I've read and noticed that just using "said" flows much better. And by the way, I have read way too many PG books where someone ejaculates their surprise. Freaks me out every time.

ok, point taken in this specific case, but don't go choosing the most outrageously outdated, currently connotationally loaded example you can think of, or anything, sheesh... i still maintain that a little "murmuring" or "mumbling" or even "shouting" from time to time can make for a less monotonous read. i'm not saying at *every* line, understand... my golly, since when did knowing more than one word become a bad thing ? i'm sure shakespeare wrote plays just so he could *never* have to use dialogue tags at *all*, and just skip the whole mess... (she muttered...)