Books that would be lost forever? - Page 2

tomsem · 06-23-2011, 08:15 PM

Archive.org has taken on the project of physical preservation not only of the digital representation but of the books they scan:

http://blog.archive.org/2011/06/06/w...ernet-archive/

However if it was not in print form to begin with, seems there might be some problems if we lose the ability to build technology for reading the digital content, even if it is physically intact.

No doubt someone is thinking about how to re-boot digital technology in the event of civilization crash, if only the sci-fi writers. Hopefully this effort will not involve the reinvention of MS Windows, we should not repeat the mistakes of the past. (just kidding, Microsoft).

SandyHarper · 06-23-2011, 08:21 PM

I would think all the old books that have value will be digitized one way or the other. So these should be here forever, IMO.

pwalker8 · 06-23-2011, 10:47 PM

I actually have ebook copies of Norton's first six Witch World books purchased legitimately via Amazon in two omnibus volumes. My understanding is that the first volume has since been pulled since it's a topaz formatted scan that isn't the best in the world. Still it's better than nothing.

My guess is that the authors that will be difficult to find are the mid list authors who have since passed away and the books have become orphaned works for all practical purposes. While many of those books are available on the darknet, some are not. In addition, there are a number of books from earlier times that haven't really aged as well, so they are difficult to read for an audience that doesn't understand the conventions used at the times.

apbschmitz · 06-24-2011, 04:26 PM

I was looking for something on Project Gutenberg just last night and was struck not so much by the idea of what books might be lost as by the quantities of stuff by writers I had never heard of. They might be giants, I suppose, but who are they? The problem of the future is that there's not much difference between books being lost and books being stacked in mountain ranges of literature that can't possibly be sorted through.

GA Russell · 06-24-2011, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apbschmitz

The problem of the future is that there's not much difference between books being lost and books being stacked in mountain ranges of literature that can't possibly be sorted through.

It appears to me that the most valuable contribution of the publishers of the future will be promotion. As I understand it, they do a poor job of promoting many/most of their authors today.

CazMar · 06-26-2011, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TenaciousBadger

Ok, bullet vest on. Helmet? Check! Ok, going in:

I reckon losing books is part of the natural order of things. If they go, then they must have outlived their usefulness. It's what shaped out civilization, I believe (thinking of the Dead Sea Scrolls right now; what if they had not been lost? What if the Iliad and the Odyssey had not been Homer's only surviving masterpieces? What if... What if...).
You can only carry so much knowledge and information at one time. Some of it is bound to become forgotten and disappear into the mists of time (*notice the drama, wyndslash*)

Probably the only problem with this is that in times of great upheaval (like the fall of the Roman empire) things get lost that should have been saved. The only reason we have kept a lot of ancient material (like most of what remains of Aristotle's works) was that they were valued by Eastern scholars, but thought of little importance in early medieval Christian Europe.
Unfortunately choices about what we keep are often made by religious bigots or crazy dictators, not scholars. But a good point to raise as we do need to keep ourselves open to all sides of this debate.

TenaciousBadger · 06-26-2011, 04:06 AM

^ I'm not saying "let's not save books from oblivion", I'm saying "be aware we can't save them all" and maybe trying to is a bit irrational. Maybe some books are meant to fall by the wayside, those that have left an indelible mark on our way of thinking, those that have not even registered and yes unfortunately some that have not yet succeeded in leaving enough behind.

What's more (and scary) is in my opinion, that in today's world, knowledge rarely has time to really seep through all the pores of society and really settle down in the bedrock. It just skips on the surface, like a pebble.

Going back to Aristotle, I reckon the reason he was re-discovered by Christianity and the West is that at the time his ideas, or what was left of them, meshed with whatever answers thinkers of the time were looking for. Had they found all these answers in the doctrines surrounding them at the time, Aristotle with his works intact might have joined the droves of other unknown names that have been long forgotten.

What I'm trying to say (in a very convoluted way, I know) is that one thing leads to another, lack will lead to discovery, and glut, sadly, to flotsam and jetsam.

ficbot · 06-26-2011, 05:53 AM

I read this one book off Project Gutenberg that frankly deserved to be lost to the ages

It was called something like 'Murder in the Country House' and basically, this guy wants to do some business dealings with this other guy, so he contrives to get himself invited to this country house where the other guy will be. So I am reading along, and I am waiting and waiting for the promised murder. And then at about chapter 6, they all get up to the country house, and they sit down for dinner together, and one of the characters turns to another one and says 'So...what are your feelings on the monarchy?'

Half an hour of reading time later (and I read fast, so this was a fair chunk of book) the characters were still parroting the author's feelings on the monarchy, and I was still waiting for the murder part. I gave up shortly after and deleted the book.

I agree with Apb. In the future, there will be a billion books on Project Gutenberg, and probably half of them will be our time's equivalent to the murder in the country house book. Where would a potential reader even begin?

wyndslash · 06-26-2011, 06:01 AM

value is subjective, though. you may not like a certain book, but it could prove to be interesting to another, and vice versa.

of course, i think that trying to save everything is an exercise in futility, but what does scare me is that people who do not read are the ones dictating which books should be preserved and which should be banned for "inappropriate content".

pwalker8 · 06-26-2011, 09:41 AM

Why would trying to save everything be an exercise in futility? Given how fast storage media has grown in size, it's quite feasible to have copies of every book ever published. Goggle made a pretty good start at it. The issues there are legal rather than technical.

I agree with a couple of the previous posters, the future issue will be obscurity, not availability. Though, I would point of that if a work isn't available, over time it becomes obscure.

I also think that in the future, if publishers are to survive, they will have to increase their role in finding good talent and publicizing that talent (kind of what was said earlier in the thread). With everyone able to self publish now, the real issue for consumers will be wading through the mass of garbage to find the books that appeal to them.

Publishers that establish an identity (i.e. you know what kind of book is published by them), create a connection with the audience, and keep that audience interested in their product will come out ahead. Of course, that requires a combination of good judgement, knowing the audience and a lot of ongoing day to day hard work.

DMB · 06-26-2011, 12:28 PM

Well here is a book that I read once. It is considered of some importance in the evolution of English literature, and that's why I read it. But I defy anyone to read it and enjoy it.

Quote:

How frantic are those lovers which are carried away with the gay glistering of the fine face? The beauty whereof is parched with the summer's blaze and chipped with the winter's blast: which is of so short continuance, that it fadeth before one perceive it flourish

elcreative · 06-26-2011, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandyHarper

I would think all the old books that have value will be digitized one way or the other. So these should be here forever, IMO.

The problem is who decides that a book has value... my definition will probably differ drastically from yours...

06-23-2011, 08:15 PM	#16
tomsem Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,011 Karma: 27060353 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Device: iPhone 15PM, Kindle Scribe, iPad mini 6, PocketBook InkPad Color 3	Archive.org has taken on the project of physical preservation not only of the digital representation but of the books they scan: http://blog.archive.org/2011/06/06/w...ernet-archive/ However if it was not in print form to begin with, seems there might be some problems if we lose the ability to build technology for reading the digital content, even if it is physically intact. No doubt someone is thinking about how to re-boot digital technology in the event of civilization crash, if only the sci-fi writers. Hopefully this effort will not involve the reinvention of MS Windows, we should not repeat the mistakes of the past. (just kidding, Microsoft). Last edited by tomsem; 06-23-2011 at 08:20 PM.

06-26-2011, 04:06 AM	#22
TenaciousBadger Mrawr? Posts: 1,109 Karma: 15039064 Join Date: Aug 2010 Device: kindle 3 wifi	^ I'm not saying "let's not save books from oblivion", I'm saying "be aware we can't save them all" and maybe trying to is a bit irrational. Maybe some books are meant to fall by the wayside, those that have left an indelible mark on our way of thinking, those that have not even registered and yes unfortunately some that have not yet succeeded in leaving enough behind. What's more (and scary) is in my opinion, that in today's world, knowledge rarely has time to really seep through all the pores of society and really settle down in the bedrock. It just skips on the surface, like a pebble. Going back to Aristotle, I reckon the reason he was re-discovered by Christianity and the West is that at the time his ideas, or what was left of them, meshed with whatever answers thinkers of the time were looking for. Had they found all these answers in the doctrines surrounding them at the time, Aristotle with his works intact might have joined the droves of other unknown names that have been long forgotten. What I'm trying to say (in a very convoluted way, I know) is that one thing leads to another, lack will lead to discovery, and glut, sadly, to flotsam and jetsam. Last edited by TenaciousBadger; 06-26-2011 at 06:00 AM.

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06-23-2011, 08:21 PM	#17
SandyHarper Banned Posts: 236 Karma: 42512 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Device: kindle	I would think all the old books that have value will be digitized one way or the other. So these should be here forever, IMO.

06-23-2011, 10:47 PM	#18
pwalker8 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,196 Karma: 70314280 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA Device: iPad Pro, iPad mini, Kobo Aura, Amazon paperwhite, Sony PRS-T2	I actually have ebook copies of Norton's first six Witch World books purchased legitimately via Amazon in two omnibus volumes. My understanding is that the first volume has since been pulled since it's a topaz formatted scan that isn't the best in the world. Still it's better than nothing. My guess is that the authors that will be difficult to find are the mid list authors who have since passed away and the books have become orphaned works for all practical purposes. While many of those books are available on the darknet, some are not. In addition, there are a number of books from earlier times that haven't really aged as well, so they are difficult to read for an audience that doesn't understand the conventions used at the times.

06-24-2011, 04:26 PM	#19
apbschmitz Lord of Frogtown Posts: 149 Karma: 1154748 Join Date: May 2011 Location: St. Paul MN Device: Kindle	I was looking for something on Project Gutenberg just last night and was struck not so much by the idea of what books might be lost as by the quantities of stuff by writers I had never heard of. They might be giants, I suppose, but who are they? The problem of the future is that there's not much difference between books being lost and books being stacked in mountain ranges of literature that can't possibly be sorted through.

06-26-2011, 05:53 AM	#23
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	I read this one book off Project Gutenberg that frankly deserved to be lost to the ages It was called something like 'Murder in the Country House' and basically, this guy wants to do some business dealings with this other guy, so he contrives to get himself invited to this country house where the other guy will be. So I am reading along, and I am waiting and waiting for the promised murder. And then at about chapter 6, they all get up to the country house, and they sit down for dinner together, and one of the characters turns to another one and says 'So...what are your feelings on the monarchy?' Half an hour of reading time later (and I read fast, so this was a fair chunk of book) the characters were still parroting the author's feelings on the monarchy, and I was still waiting for the murder part. I gave up shortly after and deleted the book. I agree with Apb. In the future, there will be a billion books on Project Gutenberg, and probably half of them will be our time's equivalent to the murder in the country house book. Where would a potential reader even begin?

06-26-2011, 06:01 AM	#24
wyndslash Wizard Posts: 2,951 Karma: 3000001 Join Date: Feb 2011 Device: Kindle 3 wifi, Kindle Fire	value is subjective, though. you may not like a certain book, but it could prove to be interesting to another, and vice versa. of course, i think that trying to save everything is an exercise in futility, but what does scare me is that people who do not read are the ones dictating which books should be preserved and which should be banned for "inappropriate content".

06-26-2011, 09:41 AM	#25
pwalker8 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,196 Karma: 70314280 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA Device: iPad Pro, iPad mini, Kobo Aura, Amazon paperwhite, Sony PRS-T2	Why would trying to save everything be an exercise in futility? Given how fast storage media has grown in size, it's quite feasible to have copies of every book ever published. Goggle made a pretty good start at it. The issues there are legal rather than technical. I agree with a couple of the previous posters, the future issue will be obscurity, not availability. Though, I would point of that if a work isn't available, over time it becomes obscure. I also think that in the future, if publishers are to survive, they will have to increase their role in finding good talent and publicizing that talent (kind of what was said earlier in the thread). With everyone able to self publish now, the real issue for consumers will be wading through the mass of garbage to find the books that appeal to them. Publishers that establish an identity (i.e. you know what kind of book is published by them), create a connection with the audience, and keep that audience interested in their product will come out ahead. Of course, that requires a combination of good judgement, knowing the audience and a lot of ongoing day to day hard work.