Piracy vs Bookstores

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by Richard Herley

... the interim results from my experimental business model may cast some light on this thread. My site has been open for five weeks and so far over 5,000 ebooks have been downloaded. I have received payment for 61.

I'm very disappointed in this. I was really hoping this would work for you. I can only tell you personally that I only downloaded your books two weeks ago and have not had a chance to read them yet. I almost did (and should have) paid immediately but took your words literally that you only wanted to be paid if I enjoyed the book.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by spooky69

To throw in one thought on the side of justification and reasonableness of piracy, I would say that the one right that is being gained by pirating is the right to information regardless of income/spending ability.

I would never enjoy things when I knew the creator should be compensated and was not and I don't think that I'm entitled to things regardless of my income. If you haven't done so read Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment".

Understand that you're not only taking a couple of cents from the creator you're leeching off of the people that are paying for the books as well. Too many parasites and the host dies. I might have been a parasite in my mother's womb and for the first 18 years of my life but I've tried to grow and be a self sustaining entity.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by hidari

I would say that most people are well aware of the patronage system of Europe in the past on this forum. . Also, I understand freedom of expression is a right. , so is going to the toilet, so what. I figured you would understand that I was referring to being paid to write. Saying that writing will suffer without writers being paid a fine wage is what I find a weak argument. There are many a fine writer from the past that did not earn a good wage, yet were able to "survive" in their respective cultures.

I think your argument is specious.

I do understand that not everyone who downloads pirate ebooks reads them, and they would likely not have bought them if they were not available. They certainly don't translate directly into lost sales. Still, I don't think anyone will disagree with the position that at least some percentage of such downloads are lost sales, even if it's only 1-2%.

Writing is a craft just like carpentry. There are people who do carpentry for the sheer joy of it, and others who do it for money. If people in a money-based economy worked on the principle that the products of carpentry should be free the end result would be fewer carpenters and far fewer products of carpentry. Each carpenter would still need to eat, and in order to do that they would need a job that paid (as a writer perhaps?) them enough to live on. Some would move on to jobs that would take all their time and force them to give up carpentry altogether. Others would simply decrease the number of hours spent on carpentry due to the time required for the other job. The end result is a smaller number of carpenter-hours in the economy and thus lowered output.

Writing works the same way.

Some write in their spare time, others full time. Some for a primary income, some for a supplemental income, and others regardless of income. If you remove the reward motivation from writing you will decrease the total amount of hours people spend writing.

This means fewer books will be produced.

It all comes down to two simple facts: Everyone needs to eat, and time is a fixed commodity. If writers are not paid they will not spend as much time writing because they will not have as much time to write. Therefore they will not produce as many books and they will learn the craft more slowly than if they could devote more time to it. End result, fewer books and likely a lower quality.

It's got nothing to do with rights, and everything to do with needs.

Also, it's not about making a "fine" living: Most writers don't, it's about compensation for labor and incentive to produce more. Writing a novel is hard work.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Writing is a craft just like carpentry. There are people who do carpentry for the sheer joy of it, and others who do it for money. . . . Also, it's not about making a "fine" living: Most writers don't, it's about compensation for labor and incentive to produce more. Writing a novel is hard work.

Writing is hard work but focusing on writing alone ignores the contributions of others to the final product -- and these others have to be paid by either the writer or the publisher.

Very few writers believe that their book is ready to be published as is the moment it leaves their hands. Most writers recognize the need for a quality editor, a cover designer, a production editor, and so on, each of whom brings a particular skill and talent to the process of producing a book.

Consequently, somewhere along the line the ultimate reader has to pay something for the book or none of the people in the production chain are paid. And except for the writer who relies on royalty payments, all the others in the chain need to be paid in the here and now. Given a choice between working for nothing and working for something, members of the chain will choose the latter so they can pay their bills, which means that, in the end, everyone loses.

So if people do not pay for a writer's book there is a ripple effect and eventually there is less quality product available.

[Halk]

Richard, you're a brave man doing an experiment like that! It's quite depressing, but not surprising that you've had those results. I would point out something though about people's internet habits. People will grab way more than they need, in the way of downloads. I suspect many people have downloaded your books and haven't bothered reading them. People who would not have paid for them anyway. The thinking might be along the lines of "Well, no I probably won't read or buy these, but I'll grab them anyway, since it doesn't cost me anything".

As far as the library is concerned.... perhaps we've evolved past the need for our taxes to provide a public library. Certainly with electronic books I'd say that may well be the case. I'd instead like to see a national electronic book library, funded by subscription, in the same way as our TV license works. And I guess DRM would be essential there, since if it wasn't then people would be people. Someone had already linked one somewhere that was, I believe, charging 30 dollars a year for access, and allowed you to have 3 books at a time, and change them once every 3-16 days. I can't fathom how that would be enough to support authors, so perhaps it'd need to be a fair bit more.

[Taylor514ce]

My personal experience regarding Mr. Herley's books might be representative: I downloaded one, and started to read it immediately. I didn't really have the time then, and moved on to other things. Plus, I had other things on my reading list to work through. By the time I got back to it, I found I didn't particularly care for it. I won't go into why - it isn't relevant.

So, I have it, yet won't buy it, because those were the parameters. Here's where it gets interesting, though speculative. I still have it. It's on my reading device. I can well imagine myself finishing up a book while stuck in Logan International and reading what's at hand: this book I downloaded and never read. Will I even remember where it came from or whether or not I paid for it, and if not, how to do so? I suspect not, and the impetus to pay decreases with longevity.

I think there are two types of "buyers" for you, Richard. Those who already like your work, and will download and pay immediately, and those who will pay "on impulse", for a variety of reasons (altruistic support of a writer, of a e-book author, of a fellow forum member). But I think the model of download it now, read it later, and pay much later, doesn't work, if I'm any case in point.

Note, I don't think the failure of the model represents my failure as a paying book consumer nor yours as a talented writer. Time to adjust the model... is the software shareware model at all instructive? "Nagware"? What about how forums such as this exist and even make a profit? Advertising, dare I say it? If you want a free version of the book, you'll have to endure an advert every so many pages, otherwise, pay up front?

[Elsi]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

No... it leads publishers to believe that they cannot make a profit from that book, because it has been pirated, and they will subsequently not release it. (This is not necessarily true, in fact, but true or not, it is the perception on the publisher's part.)

Publishers ought to be savvy enough to realize that there are a large number of potential customers who won't get the pirated copy -- either because they don't know how or because they believe it's wrong to take a pirated copy.

Deciding not to produce a legitimate version simply because someone has a pirate version is wrong. Do you think that motion picture companies are refusing to produce DVDs for the Chinese market just because pirated copies are available?

[llasram]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

So, I have it, yet won't buy it, because those were the parameters. Here's where it gets interesting, though speculative. I still have it. It's on my reading device. I can well imagine myself finishing up a book while stuck in Logan International and reading what's at hand: this book I downloaded and never read. Will I even remember where it came from or whether or not I paid for it, and if not, how to do so? I suspect not, and the impetus to pay decreases with longevity.

What if there were an additional note at the end, just “reminding” you to pay for it if you enjoyed it, along with the URL for Mr. Herley’s website?

[Richard Herley]

llasram, Barcy, Krystian, Halk, Taylor -- thanks for your kind words. I was hoping for a 20% return from those who are completely satisified. But as I say, these are only interim results. Most of the payments were actually made upfront, which is indeed not what I ask. Maybe things will change. After all, if I weren't a pathetic optimist I'd never have taken up writing in the first place.

I don't know any other way of distributing electronic fiction which does not impose DRM on the reader. I feel that DRM will hamper, if not prevent, the widespread adoption of e-reading. Moreover, the p-book trade is in real trouble. If authorship is to be even more heavily discouraged than it has been in the past, this bodes ill for the whole entertainment industry.

For those like hidari who may not know, it takes between 1,000 and 3,000 hours of work to produce a novel; sometimes a lot more. It also takes long dedication to the craft. If one must also pursue another job (as must the vast majority of authors), finding time to write when one is not exhausted or distracted is not easy. The only reason that novels continue to get written is the writer's human urge to communicate. I'm not sure that that, on its own, is strong enough to resist the pressures of the 21st century.

The reader's responsibility is very important. Reader and author have a sort of compact. That's why readers should care whether authors (and indeed their publishers, not all of whom are ogres ) get fair compensation for their work.

[Halk]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

Note, I don't think the failure of the model represents my failure as a paying book consumer nor yours as a talented writer. Time to adjust the model... is the software shareware model at all instructive? "Nagware"? What about how forums such as this exist and even make a profit? Advertising, dare I say it? If you want a free version of the book, you'll have to endure an advert every so many pages, otherwise, pay up front?

Ouch. Wouldn't catch me reading a book with adverts through it. I think Steve Jordan has the perfect model - both for me, and what I perceive as the "public".

People get to sample his work, they get to even read his short stories without spending a coin. And if they like it, they can buy the books.

The only issue I have is with the prices he's charging, I don't think books are price elastic. If I wanted to read a particular book then price it at $2.50, $1.50, $1.00, $8.00, $6.00 it won't make a bit of a difference to me. When the price gets much above 15 dollars, I think that's the point where I'd start to grudge the price.

Most of you I'm sure know what price elasticity of demand is, but for anyone that doesn't... Quite simply it means how prepared people are to buy something as the price changes. If a good is said to be elastic then demand will change greatly, if it's inelastic then demand will not change so drastically.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

...Note, I don't think the failure of the model represents my failure as a paying book consumer nor yours as a talented writer. Time to adjust the model... is the software shareware model at all instructive? "Nagware"? What about how forums such as this exist and even make a profit? Advertising, dare I say it? If you want a free version of the book, you'll have to endure an advert every so many pages, otherwise, pay up front?

"Nagware" is often counter-productive with the nagging leading to people swearing off anything from that source ever again. However Wowio is working with free ad-supported books and they're not bad. They limit you to 3 per day (it works very well for books, not so well for comics) and send you a tagged PDF with a single advertisement page at the beginning.

It's not bad at all.

[Redcard]

With my novels, when they're ready, I plan on charging a 50/50 scheme.

You set the price above $5. I get half, and a charity gets half.

That way, you get to help me as an author, and you get to help a cause I believe in (and one you should believe in too )

[Halk]

Originally Posted by Redcard

With my novels, when they're ready, I plan on charging a 50/50 scheme.

You set the price above $5. I get half, and a charity gets half.

That way, you get to help me as an author, and you get to help a cause I believe in (and one you should believe in too )

Not so sure about this. I do donate to charity, but I utterly despise people waving collection tins in my face, or coming round at work. I'm a little pessimistic about charities and I believe a great number of them are very poorly run by well meaning otherwise inept individuals. I'd much happier paying someone directly for their work, without them dictating which charities I give to.

[RobbieClarken]

Originally Posted by Redcard

With my novels, when they're ready, I plan on charging a 50/50 scheme.

You set the price above $5. I get half, and a charity gets half.

That way, you get to help me as an author, and you get to help a cause I believe in (and one you should believe in too )

This would probably make me less inclined to buy your books as well. Of course you are welcome to give half your earnings to your favourite charities but I'd be wary about publicising this.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Richard Herley

llasram, Barcy, Krystian, Halk, Taylor -- thanks for your kind words. I was hoping for a 20% return from those who are completely satisified.

I suspect you're being somewhat optimistic. For many years I was a shareware author. A 1% registration to download ratio is regarded as pretty good in that field - I see no reason to believe that books would be any different. You have 60 sales from 5000 downloads? That's 1.2% - pretty much what I'd expect. Many people just like downloading what they perceive as "free stuff". Doesn't matter whether they'll ever use it. They aren't "users"; they're just "hoarders".