Password-based DRM has a dim future

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by miguel1626

This inevitably leads to platform lockdown and/or unreasonable restrictions on ownership.

WRONG.

Originally Posted by miguel1626

Actually owning what I paid for is stealing (and I won't even mention the fact that copyright infringement is not theft)? Unreasonable restrictions due to misguided fears of piracy are what I'm fighting against. Not the "right to steal" (whatever that means).

Are you even listening to yourself? Because you're clearly not listening to anything I've said.

Originally Posted by miguel1626

For a scifi author, you sure are very backwards. One more reason to never read your books (even if they were free).

And as someone who's read my material, you clearly know that. The feeling's mutual.

[miguel1626]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

And as someone who's read my material, you clearly know that. The feeling's mutual.

I've read enough of your "material" on these forums to know that I won't waste my time with your books. Even downloading them for free would be a waste.

I'd rather read a though-provoking author, like Greg Egan, instead of a reactionary hell-bent on "protecting" ebooks that no one wants to read anyway.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

And what of my rights to protect my product? Am I not as deserving of basic rights as you?

You already have more rights than "normal" people. You can have your ebooks removed from the internet, and you can prosecute people who you suspect of reading them without your permission. In a growing number of countries you don't even need to provide any evidence, the mere accusation is enough to prove their guilt.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

You already have more rights than "normal" people. You can have your ebooks removed from the internet, and you can prosecute people who you suspect of reading them without your permission. In a growing number of countries you don't even need to provide any evidence, the mere accusation is enough to prove their guilt.

I may have the "right" to ask my books to be removed. However, with no real power to have it done, it is a meaningless "right." And I think we can all agree that I have absolutely no power to prevent my books being disseminated all across the entire planet at another's whim.

Regarding prosecution of those in illegal possession of my books: That "right" only extends to the boundaries of the United States of America; and thanks to the bounds of reality (and U.S. law), it's hardly a practical matter. Another meaningless "right."

Essentially, those "rights" are in line with my "right" to touch the Moon.

[DiapDealer]

Essentially, those "rights" are in line with my "right" to touch the Moon.

That right's overrated anyway... it feels just like Earth; only a little more powdery.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

I am also saying that, at some point in the future, I expect a reasonably reliable form of digital document security to surface, providing the same protection of digital property as people have of physical property.

This is where your argument falls apart. Digital document security has absolutely nothing to do with preventing piracy.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

But (as you would see if you looked over the rest of the thread) what Steve wants is unstrippable DRM!

Unstrippable DRM doesn't even make any sense. DRM has to be strippable in order for the legitimate customer to access the content. Unstrippable DRM would mean eBooks that nobody could read, including the customer. I doubt anyone could sell many of those.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

I want to prevent unauthorized dissemination... period.

That's an unachievable goal. The only way to prevent unauthorized dissemination, is to prevent any dissemination. In other words, the only way to stop your work from being pirated is to never publish it.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

By some of us. I'm not nearly as harsh on Steve as some of you. His fundamental concerns are valid. Content creators deserve to be paid when their content is experienced.

If that's true, why do we allow second-hand bookstores? Why do we allow people to lend CDs to their friends? Someone paid for it once, but the creator's not getting paid for the new person's experience.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Unstrippable DRM doesn't even make any sense. DRM has to be strippable in order for the legitimate customer to access the content. Unstrippable DRM would mean eBooks that nobody could read, including the customer. I doubt anyone could sell many of those.

I agree, but a thought just occurred to me. Warning - this is rather pedantic, very theoretical and not at all practical

Someone's signature on here says something like "DRM is like saying you have to red the book in our store". That would be one potential way of preventing piracy - only allow people to read the books while they are under surveillance.

Admittedly, I can't see why anyone would buy into such an idea, but just because I (or you) can't see a way to do it, doesn't mean no-one else can see a way to do it.

[DiapDealer]

How about building one of those electronic diabetes finger-pricker-thingies into every eReader? The eReader could then; 1) stab you 2) do a quick DNA analysis to make sure the proper owner was opening the ebook. DNA on file could even be used to enforce a family-only lending program... just gotta make sure the right alleles line up (other than spouses of course).

Bada-bing, bada-boom.

[Penforhire]

"...why do we allow second-hand bookstores? Why do we allow people to lend CDs to their friends"

It is a question of degree. An author or artist was paid once and lent a couple of times. Note the used bookstore made money on that example exchange as well. Libraries are a better example and they do pay special rates for their content.

There has to be a middle ground between "read once and locked to a single device" (extreme interpretation of those who favor DRM) and Giggle's "all your book are belong to us" attitude.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by avantman42

Someone's signature on here says something like "DRM is like saying you have to red the book in our store". That would be one potential way of preventing piracy - only allow people to read the books while they are under surveillance.

Admittedly, I can't see why anyone would buy into such an idea, but just because I (or you) can't see a way to do it, doesn't mean no-one else can see a way to do it.

That's what Kobo and Google's online-only books is. I think it's how Zinio works. It's how some university's digital textbooks work -- you must be online, logged into our servers, to read these books. Admittedly, you could share your password, but that's your *entire* account's password; you can't give a person access to one book.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

I may have the "right" to ask my books to be removed. However, with no real power to have it done, it is a meaningless "right." And I think we can all agree that I have absolutely no power to prevent my books being disseminated all across the entire planet at another's whim.

Regarding prosecution of those in illegal possession of my books: That "right" only extends to the boundaries of the United States of America; and thanks to the bounds of reality (and U.S. law), it's hardly a practical matter. Another meaningless "right."

Essentially, those "rights" are in line with my "right" to touch the Moon.

If you can't be bothered doing it yourself there are companies you can pay to do it for you. Some of them will want paying upfront, others will take a percentage of the income generated from lawsuits. There are also companies that will pay you to have the right to threaten legal action on your behalf so that they can send out letters asking for voluntary payments from unauthorised downloaders. If you do it right you can make a lot more money from piracy than you would ever make through legitimate sales.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

How about building one of those electronic diabetes finger-pricker-thingies into every eReader? The eReader could then; 1) stab you 2) do a quick DNA analysis to make sure the proper owner was opening the ebook. DNA on file could even be used to enforce a family-only lending program... just gotta make sure the right alleles line up (other than spouses of course).

Bada-bing, bada-boom.

They could also have a DNA database containing people suspected of removing DRM, and every time they try to use an ebook reader it renders the reader unusable. Or if that's too draconian maybe the ebook reader could issue an automatic fine when a book with removed DRM is opened, with the money taken from the owner's credit card. Say $100 for a first offence, $1000 for a second, $10,000 for a third offence, etc. Obviously all this would be in the license agreement for each ebook, otherwise it probably wouldn't be legal.