Book lovers have emotional bond with paper

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by bookbinder

Kfarmer, perhaps I didn't express myself very well. I certainly didn't mean to communicate what you received, namely that this is the be-all-and-end-all of reading and that other viewpoints were less for it. That's not what I meant! Come, let me buy you an eBeer.

Cider or mead, but the content's still received.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Well, after suggesting that reading anything on a reader is tantamount to reading porn...

And did I say porn was to be avoided? No. There are some rather skillful people out there creating the stuff.

I just said it wasn't a good substitute for a date.

[NatCh]

Okay, folks, I think it's "deep breath" time. It's become clear in the last several posts that there's a fair amount of misunderstanding going on here, mostly in the various readers (and I don't mean devices) perceiving what was written more strongly than was actually meant.

Setting all that aside, there are some really good points buried in all that chaff.

I think it's pretty clearly established that different people place differing importance in the packaging of whatever it is that "books" really are. That's not especially surprising, of course.

It's also pretty clear that it's perfectly okay for different folks to hold those differing opinions: a person's subjective view of a subjective matter is in no way invalidated by that view not being universally held.

However, the variety of views on the subject are interesting and at times enlightening to those who have the interest in examining them (which of course we all do here, or we wouldn't be reading them, right? ). So let's take a moment and consider the possibility that no offense was meant in the first place on any side, and that while comments, examples and analogies may come across as stronger than was intended, they probably weren't actually chosen with the intent to insult anyone.

Then we can get back to a good discussion of the topic at hand.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by kfarmer

But the weight, even ungainliness of some omnibus editions help tell the story. I thin book reinforces a generally light story; a small book talks about small things at a time (sonnets, perhaps); a large tome feels as epic as the story it tells. The finer crafted books gives more of a sense of importance to the story, and prompts the mind to give more thought to it. Common paperbacks are stories not necessarily important -- Star Trek vs Dune, perhaps.

What I have noticed when reading books on my Cybook is that the thickness of the book or story was a factor that was more important to the experience then I thought before. You really use how much is left of the book (in absolute terms) to adjust your exectations and that influences the experince. Maybe if we will get a page number display on the Cybook I can learn to get this information.

Keeping the books also provides a meta-memory. They act as mnemonics for my own life -- where I was, who I was, what I was doing even over the space of a few minutes. Trading the book in for a newer copy often disrupts that mnemonic. Reducing it to an ebook completely removes it, as I've experienced in the months I've have my reader.

That is very true.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by tompe

What I have noticed when reading books on my Cybook is that the thickness of the book or story was a factor that was more important to the experience then I thought before. You really use how much is left of the book (in absolute terms) to adjust your exectations and that influences the experince. Maybe if we will get a page number display on the Cybook I can learn to get this information.

I get that as well.. an anticipation of the end. I note that I don't get that nearly as much with LOTR, but that has all those appendices at the end.

Should pull out Tufte and see what he'd think. I think a progress bar would be more intuitive. While numbers are compact, they're also more abstract about something that (nominally) would be experienced in the concrete.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by tompe

What I have noticed when reading books on my Cybook is that the thickness of the book or story was a factor that was more important to the experience then I thought before. You really use how much is left of the book (in absolute terms) to adjust your exectations and that influences the experince. Maybe if we will get a page number display on the Cybook I can learn to get this information.

I hear what you're saying, tompe, I do exactly the same thing with a paper book. I think that because my PRS500 had the page numbers already there when they launched (in "# of #" format), I pretty quickly adjusted to using them rather than the physical remainder of the pages to make that judgment. I find myself checking the page numbers to see how much is left pretty frequently, especially in climactic passages.

For me, the dwindling size of the remaining pages is something of a distraction in a paper book, since I have to constantly adjust my grip. I'm currently reading the first of the Horatio Hornblower books (the first in the time line, not the publication order) in paper, as they're not e-vailable, and I'm also finding the reading from both faces (especially lying down), and the "pages sticking together" thing to be very jarring after ~19 months almost exclusively on the PRS500. These were a few of the things I always looked forward to e-reading to solve, but I realize that they're going to be less bothersome, or even advantageous to other folks.

[Gudy]

Originally Posted by tompe

What I have noticed when reading books on my Cybook is that the thickness of the book or story was a factor that was more important to the experience then I thought before. You really use how much is left of the book (in absolute terms) to adjust your exectations and that influences the experince. Maybe if we will get a page number display on the Cybook I can learn to get this information.

From my experiences with the Hanlin V3 I'd say that a page number display helps, but the horizontal bar at the top with markings for chapter boundaries and your position in the book is much, much better than that.

(If you have trouble picturing that, download CoolReader and have a look yourself.)

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by kfarmer

I think a progress bar would be more intuitive. While numbers are compact, they're also more abstract about something that (nominally) would be experienced in the concrete.

I find the numbers more agreeable than I think I would the progress bar ... after all these years with Windows I guess I just don't trust progress bars anymore.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by Gudy

... the horizontal bar at the top with markings for chapter boundaries and your position in the book is much, much better than that.

That does sound interesting.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by NatCh

I find the numbers more agreeable than I think I would the progress bar ... after all these years with Windows I guess I just don't trust progress bars anymore.

I work for Microsoft, actually (was LINQ, now Silverlight).

And speaking from experience, they're not as easy to write as one may think. It's that whole problem of not generally knowing ahead-of-time how long it's supposed to be, whether or not you should trust what you're told, and how long people are willing to let you take to find out otherwise.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by kfarmer

Should pull out Tufte and see what he'd think. I think a progress bar would be more intuitive. While numbers are compact, they're also more abstract about something that (nominally) would be experienced in the concrete.

The Cybook has a progress bar but that is not enough for me since the measurement given is relative. I have to know the total number of pages and then compute the actual number of pages left using the progress bar.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by tompe

The Cybook has a progress bar but that is not enough for me since the measurement given is relative. I have to know the total number of pages and then compute the actual number of pages left using the progress bar.

There are (reasonably attractive) ways to combine both pieces of information. EG:

[..........123/456####]

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by kfarmer

I work for Microsoft, actually (was LINQ, now Silverlight).

I'm very sorry to hear that. (I mean that tongue firmly in cheek )

Originally Posted by kfarmer

And speaking from experience, they're not as easy to write as one may think. It's that whole problem of not generally knowing ahead-of-time how long it's supposed to be, whether or not you should trust what you're told, and how long people are willing to let you take to find out otherwise.

I program in Lotus Notes, myself (we're supposed to be switching to "something else" -- have been "supposed to" for going on four years now -- and I wish we'd get on with it, actually. I want to go to an relational back-end with a VBasic interface, as it happens), so I have some idea what you mean, kfarmer.

I'm sympathetic with the problem, but the fact remains that I've been trained by Windows to take status bars well salted.

[kfarmer]

Originally Posted by NatCh

I'm very sorry to hear that. (I mean that tongue firmly in cheek )

It's been good to us. Hard as hell, and not as .. entertaining .. as life at a startup, but I can geek out to no end

Originally Posted by NatCh

I program in Lotus Notes, myself (we're supposed to be switching to "something else" -- have been "supposed to" for going on four years now -- and I wish we'd get on with it, actually. I want to go to an relational back-end with a VBasic interface, as it happens), so I have some idea what you mean, kfarmer.

Have you checked out VB9 (VB 2008, whatever they're calling the new release -- you know how MS Marketing can be with name changes...). There's some stuff there that should make your data access much more pleasant (I know, I wrote some of it).

If you want, we can take this to a different thread.

Originally Posted by NatCh

I'm sympathetic with the problem, but the fact remains that I've been trained by Windows to take status bars well salted.

As I mentioned, I've not trusted one anywhere in ages. Especially if they're used in installers/uninstallers...

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by kfarmer

If you want, we can take this to a different thread.

Probably a good idea, I'll whip one up. Hang on.