Development GPL Compliance

Originally Posted by dontpanic

Oh, and I can say that there will likely be some lag between our releases and release of the source code. We know that it is supposed to work differently, and really do not mean it as any kind of affront to the GPL copyright holders or the developer community. It is just a matter of resources and things are usually very crazy in the last weeks running up to a release and then the few weeks after the release because of the increase in support needed. We will try to keep the delay as short as possible from this point on. Like I keep saying, we understand we have an issue and are working on improving.

DP

How hard is it to make a tarball of source and have you webmaster post it to a server? Its 10minutes of work.

Originally Posted by jcase

How hard is it to make a tarball of source and have you webmaster post it to a server? Its 10minutes of work.

You really could give the guys a break. I don't want to start a fight, but your posts sound intimidating to me. Is it really that important to get the documentation in the next 10 minutes? This bully like attitude is really not constructive. i mean, I don't like the overall discussion tone on the forum. We wouldn't be that demanding if this were the Apple forum. We need to be aware that the Edge is made by a young company, and that they also learn from us and grow with us. Please don't be offended, I really don't intend to argue, just wanted to remind us all of a friendly tone once present at this forum.

emen, seems you didn't get jcase's point. He didn't ask to "release code in next 10 minutes", but he explained that it takes only one command and about 10 minutes to create an archive of GPL licensed source code, and yet another 2 minutes to publish it on the site. So excuses like: "some lag between our releases and release of the source code ... few weeks after the release because of the increase in support needed" -- looks very lame. On another hand probably dontpanic not an developer, so he just doesn't know how easy it is to do what we asked for. And even (if as I suspected) EE want to cutoff some pieces of code from source code published... it'll only add about 5 minutes of time.

For those who are not related to programming, and believes that we speak too harshly, or want too much from a small company, let me explain You an simple thing.
You get the firmware from EE for free. Development price is included in the cost of your eDGe, as well as the cost of books and accessories that you will buy from EE's website. Programmers working for EE are paid regardless of the quality and speed of the work done.
A programmer without experience is from 1 to 30 dollars per hour. The average of 30 to 100. Good from 10.000 to 30.000 per month (after tax). Excellent - even more, but this is rare.
So, what I mean.
To create a firmware, you must be _at least a good_ programmer. But no matter how much time and effort an programmer spend to create firmware, this firmware is still free for You. And this work is not paid either by you or by EE (although note that many open source projects financed by companies which uses those projects in their products). And since we are losing money doing this EE's project on enthusiasm, at least, we (developers) would like to minimize the time required to do so.

EE could initially give us the debugging password and save time which we spent on rooting. The company could initially published source codes, and save developers time spent on writing programs. On the other hand the time saved might mean that You could get Android 2.1 few monthes ago, etc.

If you do not value your time, or if you're not interested in the progress willing to wait for months, maybe all above is "no reason" for you. However, as I said before, I hacked eDGe and began to write own firmware simply because the firmware used by EE did not allow to use eDGe and to wait at least 9 months (for SDK release) was unacceptable for me. Therefore, instead of doing more interesting projects, I spent (and probably will spend) a lot of time on what should have been done by EE for free. So it is not surprising that I (or someone else from the developers) dissatisfied with the situation and speaks quite harshly.

Originally Posted by drsteve

Patience guys............

enTourage have admitted the oversight......please don't let this escalate again into a full blown slagging match.

The code is on it's way.

Thanks to jcase, MichaelV, robot, shinkamui (and any I've missed) for their persistence in bringing this about but let's avoid cheapshots at integrity etc which cause these things to escalate into stupid and time-wasting fights.

I've agreed to drop the issues from that particular thread because I want to move on. I'd appreciate if those from the other side would drop them too, which means cutting out the painting of my position (and that of others on that thread) as "stupid", "time-wasting", and "cheap shots".

Originally Posted by emen

You really could give the guys a break. I don't want to start a fight, but your posts sound intimidating to me. Is it really that important to get the documentation in the next 10 minutes? This bully like attitude is really not constructive. i mean, I don't like the overall discussion tone on the forum. We wouldn't be that demanding if this were the Apple forum. We need to be aware that the Edge is made by a young company, and that they also learn from us and grow with us. Please don't be offended, I really don't intend to argue, just wanted to remind us all of a friendly tone once present at this forum.

Thus far, intimidation is the only thing that has worked in getting Entourage to publish the source code; the cheerleading and gentle persuasion of "Team Positivity" accomplished zero in this regard in the months prior. If they didn't want to provide source code they should have developed their own OS (as Apple did) instead of piggybacking on the GPL-licensed work of others.

p.s. offtopic
as for Apple, iPhoneOS is based on FreeBSD code... which is also as Linux an UNIX based system, but Linux has GPL license which require all based software to be open sourced, and FreeBSD has BSD license, which allow to NOT PUBLISH code. So Apple were the smart guys, got free codes and made proprietary closed software on top of it.

Originally Posted by Chubulor

I've agreed to drop the issues from that particular thread because I want to move on. I'd appreciate if those from the other side would drop them too, which means cutting out the painting of my position (and that of others on that thread) as "stupid", "time-wasting", and "cheap shots".

When referring to Boris I believe you quoted ".....Dude needs to get a thicker skin...". Perhaps you should do the same. I wasn't referring to that thread when I mentioned cheapshots. I was actually referring to the previous two comments from Justin and Jos. I thanked Justin et al for their efforts in the very post you quoted. They made a great breakthrough in securing the release of the code. But the side show was embarrassing. If you have chosen to take my plea for adult behaviour as a snipe at your integrity, then I apologize. I don't believe I even mentioned your name. I just wanted to head any further escalation off at the pass. It seems I failed.

Seeing as how I haven't left the forums and deleted all my posts, my reaction and Boris' are not really comparable. If he had appeared later in the thread, or somewhere else on the forum, and rebutted the questions about his integrity rather than simply taking his ball and going home, I never would have made that remark.

Given the usual reaction of "Team Positivity" to any criticism of Entourage, as evidenced by the first couple of responses to jcase's initial comment in "that" thread, that side show was inevitable once jcase did what was necessary to get Entourage to play ball and live up to their GPL obligations. The pro-Entourage side of that thread dished out quite a bit in the way of personal attacks themselves, yet oddly none of the "can't we all just get along" moralizing since then seems to be directed at them; rather it predictably follows any criticism of Entourage or impatience with their failure to meet their obligations.

I'm sure you mean well, so here's a hint for the future: insinuating that other commenters are immature and need your guidance in how to behave isn't going to prevent escalation. Like the beloved (by people who aren't me) New Forum Rules say, treat others as you would like to be treated.

I am sorry I am not a postal employee.

I know this is off topic but I just had to divulge that information.

I’m not a programmer, but I really do appreciate all the things your guys (the community) have done so far. Personally, I like my Edge, because it suites my needs. And I’m grateful for the opportunity to get a great device at that price (there is currently no e-reader on the market that can do all the things Entourage does).

The firmware can certainly be improved, and it will be, I believe. But I don’t think it’s fair to ask them to work on our firmware 24/7. It’s weekend now, and I believe the Entourage guys would prefer to spend some time with their family and friends, so we could at least wait ’till Monday.
On the other hand, I suppose the developers cannot publish the source code or any additional documentation, without consulting their lawyers and their bosses first.

As far as I know, it’s very rare thing to see that a company opens up a place where people are actually allowed to criticize their work openly (they could have erased all of the messages they didn’t like, before we even got a chance to read them), where the staff actually answers your question and tries to help you. I’m just trying to be fair, because I see good will from the Entourage side and I think we should be a little bit more patient.

Originally Posted by Chubulor

Seeing as how I haven't left the forums and deleted all my posts, my reaction and Boris' are not really comparable. If he had appeared later in the thread, or somewhere else on the forum, and rebutted the questions about his integrity rather than simply taking his ball and going home, I never would have made that remark.

Given the usual reaction of "Team Positivity" to any criticism of Entourage, as evidenced by the first couple of responses to jcase's initial comment in "that" thread, that side show was inevitable once jcase did what was necessary to get Entourage to play ball and live up to their GPL obligations. The pro-Entourage side of that thread dished out quite a bit in the way of personal attacks themselves, yet oddly none of the "can't we all just get along" moralizing since then seems to be directed at them; rather it predictably follows any criticism of Entourage or impatience with their failure to meet their obligations.

I'm sure you mean well, so here's a hint for the future: insinuating that other commenters are immature and need your guidance in how to behave isn't going to prevent escalation. Like the beloved (by people who aren't me) New Forum Rules say, treat others as you would like to be treated.

I'm not going to let this turn into a caricature of the very thing I was trying to prevent. I wasn't taking sides. It was a comment to both 'sides', a totally general statement (read my post and demonstrate otherwise). I was wholeheartedly behind the release of source. Now if I've caused offence or been misunderstood, then I hereby apologize. With regard to treating others etc, everyone has the ability to read through every single post another member has contributed. Read through mine. If you class me as one of the cheerleaders, then so be it. You'll certainly not find any deliberate provocation of flame wars. Anyway make your own mind up. Apologies again. Let's move on

Originally Posted by pat.indie

I am sorry I am not a postal employee.

Not off-topic at all. Made my weekend!

Very well, drsteve. I have no desire to nurse grudges either, but sometimes it seems these pleas for better behavior crop up after any negative comment about Entourage. There were no personal attacks in the comments you were responding to.

It's not impatience or public frustration with Entourage that caused the past ugliness, it's the personal attacks, and to the extent you oppose those I will agree with you.

Originally Posted by Chubulor

Very well, drsteve. I have no desire to nurse grudges either, but sometimes it seems these pleas for better behavior crop up after any negative comment about Entourage. There were no personal attacks in the comments you were responding to.

It's not impatience or public frustration with Entourage that caused the past ugliness, it's the personal attacks, and to the extent you oppose those I will agree with you.

I'll drink to that ! GPL and release of source have been the only discussions that have got ugly on this forum.
Once enTourage iron out the last few wrinkles (config files and the other piece of open source code that robot mentioned) I think we'll see some really great things.

What about Chess on e-ink side?