Epub coming to Amazon and the Kindle!!!

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

In short, is this a market worth a lot of effort to compete in?

Don't forget the Long Tail business model that got Amazon where they are.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by carld

Also, I haven't checked, but I'm certain that Adobe's DRM methods are patented. Even if Amazon were able to do a clean room implementation of the software, Adobe could still claim violation of their software patents.

Amazon have enough money to pay for an adept licance.
Else, they can use their weight on the e-book market to impose the no drm to the publishers.

They can do it, the question is, do they want to ?

Who really thinks Amazon will sell ePub?

That what they sould do if they had some sences

I don't think they will. I think Amazon is just going to allow ePub uploads to be converted to Mobipocket.

Don't they already do that ?

[carld]

I didn't say they couldn't afford to pay Adobe's fees. I said they wouldn't, and they won't, unless I'm completely wrong. If Amazon had enough weight with the publishers to get them to remove DRM, they could have prevented agency pricing. They tried that and failed.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Amazon have enough money to pay for an adept licance.

Amazon is a low margin, high volume business. They have a profit margin of less than 5% (but good profit because they do a *lot* of business). Imposing a 22 cent surcharge on each drm'd book is not something they would accept.

Else, they can use their weight on the e-book market to impose the no drm to the publishers.

They can do it, the question is, do they want to ?

Turns out the publishers have a lot of power, too; they were able to force the agency model on Amazon.

That what they sould do if they had some sences

That is not clear at all. And claiming that Amazon lacks sense ignores a lot of facts.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Who really thinks Amazon will sell ePub? I don't think they will. I think Amazon is just going to allow ePub uploads to be converted to Mobipocket.

+1

Lee

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Who really thinks Amazon will sell ePub? I don't think they will. I think Amazon is just going to allow ePub uploads to be converted to Mobipocket.

+2

And already mentioned a few times on page 1.

[tomsem]

As I understand it, Adobe gets paid in two ways: by licensing the client side RMSDK to be able to deal with Adobe DRM (including a renderer for PDF and ePub), and by licensing the Adobe Content Server to apply Adobe DRM to ePub and PDF files.

But most vendors ostensibly selling 'Adobe DRM ePub' files (and who have their own storefront-linked devices and apps) bypass this in interesting ways. So for example, Kobo apps for iOS/Android/Mac/PC do not use RMSDK. They use their own ePub rendering engine, and books downloaded directly from Kobo are expanded into the constituant folder/file structure that ePub contains, and these are encrypted with some Kobo-proprietary, device/app-specific key. There's no 'epub file' that you can move to another reading system, even one from Kobo. Because RMSDK is not being used, you can only side-load ePub files without DRM protection, and there's no PDF support, but also no need to 'authorize' the app with Adobe, or for the two-step fulfillment with .acsm files, etc.

Note this means that on the server end of this transaction, Adobe's server is not needed. Only when you request an actual ePub file from Kobo's web site does Kobo's ACS server get used, resulting in some revenue sharing with Adobe. Kobo devices license RMSDK, but only to support side-loading of 3rd party content (from libraries, Sony etc.), and secondarily for the rendering engine. So if you consider that purchases made from Kobo devices/apps directly probably account for 95% of their ebook business, none of these transactions generate direct revenue for Adobe as far as I can tell.

Amazon's system already functions in much the same way, and already supports more than one format (currently, mobi and Topaz). ePub would just be another one. They do license RMSDK for PDF rendering already (since K2); they could use that for ePub rendering, too (might need to modify the existing licensing arrangement to do so), or write their own rendering engine if they didn't like Adobe's. They could also enable side-loading of Adobe DRM epub/PDF so that new Kindle customers could bring an existing ePub collection with them. As added incentive to move to Kindle platform, they could offer inexpensive cloud storage, accessible from Kindle devices/apps, along with syncing and note-archiving.

If they wanted to offer ePub titles to both their own customers and to the world at large, they could use their own DRM for Kindle devices/apps, and Adobe DRM for everyone else (as Kobo and Google do). Only in the latter case would they have to pay Adobe more than they are already (well - except perhaps for RMSDK fees, however that works). It would be particularly nice if Amazon could sell multiformat licenses like O'Reilly ('download whichever format you like'), at least with publishers who agree to that. Kindle devices and apps would still be 'privileged' in such a system, since only they have wireless delivery, free cloud storage, note backup, and syncing services, while everyone else would experience side-loading of some sort, and have to manage their own archiving without syncing.

I would be surprised if Amazon hadn't at least a draft plan for a transition to ePub. The ePub3 specification was just published this week, while we haven't heard anything from Amazon about the evolution of mobi format: no betas, no leaked NDA's, nothing. In the ebook production world, ePub has all of the mind share. But while it really 'makes sense' that Amazon will move to ePub at some point of their choosing, there is no direct evidence that it is imminent, and the indirect evidence is ambiguous.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

What proportion of the markets that Amazon sell to is represented by non-Kindle eInk devices? Is that proportion growing or shrinking, in comparison to Kindles, iThings, Android devices, and so on? In short, is this a market worth a lot of effort to compete in?

I do think with the additions of the nook touch and the Kobo Touch that the non-Kindle market is going to grow.

[Giggleton]

Just a few things, the Kindle emulator that Amazon makes automatically converts epubs for you and displays them. epubs allow for embedded java which means interactive books which means $$.

[tomsem]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Just a few things, the Kindle emulator that Amazon makes automatically converts epubs for you and displays them. epubs allow for embedded java which means interactive books which means $$.

Javascript, not Java. But support is optional and only a few reading systems (those based on webkit?) currently support it (iBooks and I believe Kobo's Android and iOS apps do, and I think calibre's epub viewer does as well).

Mobipocket specification also included Javascript support way back, but I'm not sure which if any of the reading apps actually implemented it.

Taking this a step further, there is an .epub file floating around out there called 'jquery on iBooks', which demonstrates the ability to use jquery UI objects in iBooks (and Kobo).

But just because you can do something, does not mean that you should do it. For example, I've checked out a few 'enhanced ebooks' (embedded audio and video objects) and can't say it added positively to my reading experience. But things like popup footnotes are a no brainer. It will be important to implement fallback mechanisms so reading systems without JS support can at least know what they might be missing, or get a useful, if less slick, experience.

[Suzanna]

Way back when the Kindle was very expensive, during the pre-Agency pricing for books days, Amazon made their money selling the devices. They used to lose money with each ebook sale so yeah, I can understand why they wouldn't have wanted to pay additional fees to Adobe to use their DRM scheme.

However, all that has now changed. Amazon is no longer locked into a system where they are losing money on their ebook sales, so perhaps their stance has changed with respect to paying fees to Adobe.

I'm curious to see whether this will actually happen and how Amazon will implement it.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I do think with the additions of the nook touch and the Kobo Touch that the non-Kindle market is going to grow.

The proportion of non-Kindle eInk to Kindle eInk may well be increasing, I agree, but ultimately that isn't the question. How is non-Kindle eInk doing in comparison to everything that can read Kindle books, which includes Kindles and Apple/Android tablets? I rather suspect it is shrinking.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Sao

Way back when the Kindle was very expensive, during the pre-Agency pricing for books days, Amazon made their money selling the devices. They used to lose money with each ebook sale so yeah, I can understand why they wouldn't have wanted to pay additional fees to Adobe to use their DRM scheme.

However, all that has now changed. Amazon is no longer locked into a system where they are losing money on their ebook sales, so perhaps their stance has changed with respect to paying fees to Adobe.

At the moment they make X per book. If they had to pay money to Adobe, they would make less than X per book. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me
If they implemented ePub, they would implement their own DRM scheme.
Just like B&N, Apple and Kobo did.
For all the talk of ePub standards, what matters just as much is what the DRM scheme is, and that is very fragmented.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

At the moment they make X per book. If they had to pay money to Adobe, they would make less than X per book. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me

You've never heard of "making it up in volume?" They make X% less per book but sell 3X% more books because they can now sell to nook, sony and kobo owners...sounds like a good idea to me. Hopefully Amazon has decided that there are enough of those folks now to make this a good idea.

Think of all the indie authors around here who have noted that they make more money selling their books for 99 cents then then did when they tried to sell them for more.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ApK

You've never heard of "making it up in volume?" They make X% less per book but sell 3X% more books because they can now sell to nook, sony and kobo owners...sounds like a good idea to me. Hopefully Amazon has decided that there are enough of those folks now to make this a good idea.

But how much market are they really missing? (Talking US only for the time being)
The Kindle is by far the dominant eInk reader, and they have apps for the iOS/Android tablets, plus BlackBerries and probably a few other things.
At the moment they have a positive feedback loop between device and store, people buy the Kindle because it has access to the Amazon store, then buy Kindle books because it is what their device is built to access. Selling to other devices breaks that loop. So while they might gain some ebook sales, they might also lose some device sales, and would have to balance that.
A question: What is the largest ebook store that sells plain vanilla Adobe Adept DRM books? Amazon don't, B&N don't, Apple don't. They have all (presumably) independently chosen to use their own DRM mechanisms and avoiding paying money to Adobe.