Reality check

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Gudy

No, he means this, which does.

Thank you - my mistake; I always get Perl and Python mixed up .

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Well, as I said at the start of all this, it's your choice.

No argument there. I knew (pretty much) what I was getting into. I had just hoped that Bookeen (having gotten the nod from Baen) would have offered a better choice than between "proprietary" and "page-layout" formats.

Originally Posted by HarryT

You can either stick with the pretty ropey HTML support of the Gen3 (no images, no cross-file links, etc) or you can create functional MobiPocket books using any one of the excellent free tools which are available, either from Mobi themselves or as a result of tompe's hard work.

What free tools are those?

Sorry. I've been reading Lessig's Free Culture lately.

Mobipocket tools are not "free" as in "libre". They are free as in "gratis".
While tompe's work are "free" in both senses, his work will require a great deal of my time to get working correctly - effectively making the tools not "free" as in "gratis".

On top of that, giving support to a proprietary format is pretty much the dumbest thing we can do as eBook readers. That sends the wrong message to eBook vendors - namely that we will accept proprietary formats.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

While tompe's work are "free" in both senses, his work will require a great deal of my time to get working correctly - effectively making the tools not "free" as in "gratis".

You could always download his Windows binaries and run them on your buggy and insecure work machines.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You could always download his Windows binaries and run them on your buggy and insecure work machines.

I try not to use work machines for non-work (Note I said "try" 8-) ).

Joking aside: using any resource you do not control for something that you rely on is not a good idea. That's why I don't like hacks and such to make proprietary technology work. Sooner or later something will come along and break the hack, leaving you with useless technology.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

I had just hoped that Bookeen (having gotten the nod from Baen) would have offered a better choice than between "proprietary" and "page-layout" formats.

Just to split a quick hair -- unless something's changed that I haven't heard about, NAEB isn't part of Baen. They just used the Baen forum (with Jim's blessing) to organize the effort that eventually became NAEB. If they had been part of Baen, they wouldn't have had to bother with incorporating, and would have probably had a whole lot less trouble with PayPal et. al., which would have been nice for all concerned.

[delphidb96]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

I've asked you this several times:
1. Where is the open source version of mobigen?
2. Where are the complete specifications of the Mobipocket format so that an open source version of mobigen can be created?

You've never answered when I asked. I believe that the reason is that the answers are:
1. There is none.
2. They are not publicly available.

A format that relies on any single entity (even a company like Mobipocket that's been generous so far) forms a monopoly and monopolies are always bad for the consumer.

Remember that 10 years ago, Microsoft said it was OK to take your company's MS Office CDs home to install on your home computer. Very generous. That's certainly not Microsoft's policy today.

Companies can change their mind. The only way to protect yourself is simply not to rely on the generosity (or even the word of) a single company.

Until the Mobipocket format is open sourced, it's proprietary and should be avoided like the plague.

Well, then that means using eReader's proprietary format, Amazon's proprietary format, Sony's proprietary format or Hanlin's proprietary format - if you want to read a CURRENT title and don't want to go through the bother of buying the dead-tree version and going through the process of scanning, editing and formatting for a non-proprietary ebook format. Unless, of course, you choose to limit the books you purchase to those offered by Baen through Webscriptions. I'm all for that, but Baen doesn't offer all the titles *I* want to read.

Yes, we could always download the 'free' files that have been scanned in by someone else, but that is illegal and is ripping off the author. Or, we can track down the tools which break the DRM and make 'free' versions of our friends DRM-protected ebooks, but that is also illegal and is ripping off the author.

And waiting around for the publishers to get a clue that DRM is bad means that WE suffer, not the publishers.

Oh, what to do? I know! Pick a DRM format that has the widest systems support and a reasonably large number of current titles and hope for the best. Which is what Bookeen has done by choosing to use the Mobipocket format.

As for the 'extra spaces as squares' problem, I've re-created it with a simple test file and you are absolutely correct. A basic palmdoc version or txt version of a simple document shows those nasty squares. However, I note the Mobipocket version created with BookDesigner, using the txt file does NOT show those nasty squares. However, BD *also* stripped out those extra spaces from the displayed file. I'll see what setting I need to have them display properly.

And, yes, I'm forwarding on these test files to Bookeen because this *IS* a problem.

Derek

[Ortep]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Joking aside: using any resource you do not control for something that you rely on is not a good idea. That's why I don't like hacks and such to make proprietary technology work. Sooner or later something will come along and break the hack, leaving you with useless technology.

Do you have control over the electrical power companies?

Do you have control over the medical world?

Do you have control over the Internet?

I heavely rely on these resources. I think it is the same with you. Sometimes there are only two options. Use what is available, or don't use it at all and live with the consequences

[tribble]

Originally Posted by Ortep

Do you have control over the electrical power companies?

Do you have control over the medical world?

Do you have control over the Internet?

I heavely rely on these resources. I think it is the same with you. Sometimes there are only two options. Use what is available, or don't use it at all and live with the consequences

Not valid comparisons.
I have several electric companies to choose from and they all use the same power grid.
I can choose my doctor and hospital, even though their treatment might be the same.
The internet is even the best example on what rlauzon means. Everyone can be part of it, and help make it what it is. There is not a single company or person that can pull the plug.

So while i agree with rlauzon, that an open standard, that can be implemented by anyone would be a great advantage, and he definately is right, that the mobipocket is a closed format, he is also trying to force happiness on people who do not want it.

And as long as such an open standard does not exist for DRM books, i am quite happy with the mobipocket format, or any other format my reader is able to display.

@rlauzon: You avatar suits you very well

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

What I really want is a Mobipocket created (or at least blessed) version. Reverse-engineering a proprietary format always has problems.

I do not really care about a Mobipocket created version but I would really like to see the specification. But I suspect that the specification is their implementation in some respect so they will probably never release a specification.

Reverse engineering as its problem but in this case a lot of information is available so I do not think there are any significant bugs left concerning the format. A new reader implementation mighy change that.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It was your tool that I was referring to, Tommy. It's worked beautifully on the files that I've tried it with! In any case, if Lauzon is converting files for his own use, the "reversibility" or otherwise of the format is irrevelent, since he'll have the original files to re-convert if required. I certainly don't think that being "proprietory" or otherwise is a reason to avoid a file format. The important thing (IMHO) is the availablity of tools to work with the format, not whether or not someone "owns" the specification. Largely thanks to you, we have some excellent tools available to work with MobiPocket files.

It works well on many files. When i wrote my comment I had just had a lot of trouble with UTF-8 and problem with filepos pointing incorrectly.

The disadvantage with a format you do not have a specification of that works as a contract is that buggy converter programs cannot be detected. They might generate files that can be read on all readers but they might not generate correct files so other conversion tools will fail on the files.

[tompe]

Actually I do not think you should support proprietary formats but I do not see MobiPerl as a support of MobiPocket. For me the important format is what you archieve the book in and that should probably be something like epub. So Mobipocket can be used to convert from MobiPocket to some suitable base format. Convertingt from HTML to Mobipocket ör manipulating MobiPocket files I see just like something you do for your current display device and just a practical way to solve a problem that exists now.

And when you work on the format and expose the details you show how badly suited the format is for ceratin things so the knowledge about the format inccrease which makes it much more probable that you will switch to another better format.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Ortep

Do you have control over the electrical power companies?

Yes. It's called the Public Utilities Commission.

Originally Posted by Ortep

Do you have control over the medical world?

Yes. Several agencies regulate the medical world on my behalf.

Originally Posted by Ortep

Do you have control over the Internet?

Yes. I can control what systems I access and how. I can control what systems access my PC.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by tribble

So while i agree with rlauzon, that an open standard, that can be implemented by anyone would be a great advantage, and he definately is right, that the mobipocket is a closed format, he is also trying to force happiness on people who do not want it.

Not at all.

I am making sure that people are aware of what they are getting.

How would you feel if your new Ford could only use Ford gasoline and Ford tires, and drive on Ford-approved roads?

If you knew those restrictions before you purchased and thought it was a good deal, then fine. But how would you feel if you didn't know those restrictions before hand?

I've been working in the computer industry for over 20 years. I've seen, time and again, where a company gives away something to drive out the competition. Then changes their mind when you can no longer drop their product without incurring plenty of pain. Microsoft is a wonderful example of this.

The only way to protect yourself is not to become dependent on any "standard" that is owned by a single entity.

The ODF/OOXML controversy that's been going on is a recent example of how many people are realizing that having all their documents in a proproprietary format is not a good thing.

[Ortep]

Originally Posted by tribble

Not valid comparisons.
I have several electric companies to choose from and they all use the same power grid.
I can choose my doctor and hospital, even though their treatment might be the same.
The internet is even the best example on what rlauzon means. Everyone can be part of it, and help make it what it is. There is not a single company or person that can pull the plug.
@rlauzon: You avatar suits you very well

I can choose from several power companies also. But that makes no difference. It is only an adminstrative matter. They sell me energy, not the way to get it. The powerlines I cannot choose, the voltage I cannot choose, the frequency I cannot choose. There are much better options than 240 Volts 50 Hz. But I cannot get them. I'm completely stuck with them. And so are you. We have no control.

And I can also choose my doctor and hospital. If I have the time do do so. In an emergency they bring me to the nearest place (as they should). And some insurance companies only let you go to certain hospitals and certain doctors. But the treatment is always according to protocol. A protocol I have no control over (I don't want to, they know better what to do than I do)

The internet is as it is. I cannot change that. I'm not talking about the data, but about the way it works. I have no control over the way data is sent around the world. I can choose my ISP. But there are only two ways it can reach my home. By cable or by phoneline. The cable is a monopoly. The phone is not. BUT it is the same problem as with the powerlines. I can choose my ISP. But not the copper lines. I have no control over them

The way you look at the internet is that you can change the information on it. That is thru. But that is also the case with books. The mobi bookformat is as the way it works. The story in the book is what you can influence

[Ortep]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Yes. It's called the Public Utilities Commission.

You cannot change the way it works. Voltage, frequency etc are fixed. Even if you don't like it

Yes. Several agencies regulate the medical world on my behalf.

You do not have control over medical procedures. Others decide that for you. Protocols in an operating room are fixed. You cannot choose how an incision is made. Or what kind of stitches are used. It is up to the doctor. And if he is not following protocol he can end up in court for that if something goes wrong.

Yes. I can control what systems I access and how. I can control what systems access my PC.

Yes, you can choose high level things like that...but not the way it works...the technology is fixed

It is as with an ebook. You can choose what book to read. But not how it is made. If a company wants to use mobi for it's books it is their choice. Use it or leave it. You can choose to access a website. But you can not refuse to use the iP protocol if you do. You have no control over it. You can refuse to use it of course. That is a form of control.